Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

[aaron_c]

Wow Izzy (@Gondwanaland ) I think you get the gold medal for observation.

I hope you can find a way to build on these gains. It sounds to me like it could be promising!

For what it is worth, I have been able to eliminate "bone pain" by taking enough calcium and silica, and I suspect the link is that they are both needed for healthy bones. I take about 150 mg of calcium citrate when I take 14 mg MK-5, and I take about 100 mg of bamboo extract from swanson, which is supposed to be 70% silica. I would suggest avoiding horsetail for silica, as it also causes problems for thiamine, which will throw a lot of us with ME off. In any case, silica might make you a bit colder as it can inhibit the downstream effects of T3, but when I take the amount I currently do, it is barely noticeable. I also take magnesium (about as much as the calcium) but I don't know if that helps with bone pain. I am still waiting for the "natural" kind of calcium to arrive, calcium hydroxyapatite.

I have also experienced increasing sleepiness as I have continued taking MK-4. I have been able to mostly counteract this in a few ways:

1. Carnitine Fumarate with every meal: Possibly I need this because I stopped taking my fumaric acid, possibly I needed carnitine more than before...
   
2. Co-Q10 twice per day
3. Increased Biotin (Currently 10 mg/day): I had decreased my biotin to 150 mcg/day after starting the potato starch, but prior to this I took 5 mg/day.
   
4. Manganese (7-10 mg/day): Used in mitochondrial superoxide dismutase. Also, it is necessary for the enzyme that interconverts Glutamate and GABA. I have found that without enough manganese, I start to get a migraine from the calcium I take. As I said above, manganese gave me insomnia for weeks after stopping it before I took MK-4, but now it appears to be helpful.
5. Magnesium has been helpful, but I do not take as much as I need to to help with energy, because the MK-4 has given me daily diarrhea, and I want to find out how to stop that before I add more magnesium; I don't want to confuse things even more. The effective dose in the past has been more or less just below bowel tolerance.

B6 is also useful for preventing the migraines.

I am afraid I do not have any insight into your detox reactions. I hope you will continue to update us on your progress.

Best of luck!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Today I have been also feeling soreness in the lymph nodes around the right armpit. I am not sure it I should pursue the K2 supplementation since I have medium hypercoagulability (a few +/- SNPs) and DVT in my past. I might be risking fibrosis or worse.

For what it is worth, I have been able to eliminate "bone pain" by taking enough calcium and silica, and I suspect the link is that they are both needed for healthy bones. I take about 150 mg of calcium citrate when I take 14 mg MK-5, and I take about 100 mg of bamboo extract from swanson, which is supposed to be 70% silica. I would suggest avoiding horsetail for silica, as it also causes problems for thiamine, which will throw a lot of us with ME off. In any case, silica might make you a bit colder as it can inhibit the downstream effects of T3, but when I take the amount I currently do, it is barely noticeable.

I am glad that little doses of calcium are enough. I have never taken any on its own, except for a tiny amount on my electrolyte capsule from which I take only a fraction every now and then. I have been taking silica for a few months now, 50mg of sea silica 2x weekly. It does wonders for my skin and hopefully also for my blood vessels. Yes, I am aware that horsetail can waste B1 (not sure about the mechanism), thanks for the heads up anyway, Aaron. I am happy with my extreme low doses of silica as it is effective and I can't afford to have even lower T3. Didn't know about that connection!
I wonder if this is the same mechanism that gave me cold hands and feet for 2 days after the MK4?

I have also experienced increasing sleepiness as I have continued taking MK-4.

Hmmm just like the mB12 effect
I have never taken LCF.
I take CoQ10 15mg with breakfast and it helps. Perhaps I will increase it even if neither mB12 or MK4 work for me
Manganese is wonderful. I have been taking 1.5mg in my multimineral, and just reduced to 500mcg. Trying to anticipate the tipping point...
I have recently done a magnesium replenishing protocol and posted about it all over this site
I am not tolerating Bs anymore... They make me sleepy, or funny, can't explain it, something goes off with them. I have been taking biotin though (300mcg about 3-4x weekly) but haven't noticed anything from it. I am afraid to take high doses of it b/c it's catabolic and I am underweight.

Thank you so much for sharing your protocol, Aaron
Please post updates too!
izzy

 

[Sherlock]

Hopefully I reversed soft tissue calcification with magnesium supplementation and healthy conversion of K1 into K2 in the gut.

Just a thought: you might instead aim for stabilizing any vulnerable plaques. AFAIK, that'd mainly involve reducing pro-inflammatory dietary influences and also using anti-inflammatories. Statins are used in studies, but there are other non-pharmaceutical ones, as you'd well know.

The danger enzyme that precipitates plaque erosion/rupture is MMP-6, IIRC.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Statins are used in studies, but there are other non-pharmaceutical ones, as you'd well know.

Can you please cite examples?

The danger enzyme that precipitates plaque erosion/rupture is MMP-6, IIRC.

That's a lot of stuff to look at!
I had a blood clot due to a hurt vein (I hurt my shoulder due to thoracic outlet syndrome), then long plane trip + (+/-) SNPS + the pill

 

[Sherlock]

Can you please cite examples?

non-pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories?

well, just off the top of my head:

• red yeast rice naturally contains a 1st gen statin - but patent lawsuits made supplement companies remove that component, but there are still other natural statins remaining
• turmeric, ginger and other relatives wherein enhancing absorption is the key
• flavonoids like quercetin and tart cherry that stabilize inflammatory-troublemaker Mast Cells
• NSAIDS, aspirin
• (what am I forgetting?)

Pharma studies like JUPITER used hs-CRP testing and the statins worked so well that the study was stopped for efficacy - IOW, it would be unethical to not let the control subjects have the drug. But then again, CRP might not be the best chemical marker to look at - maybe IL-6 is better or IL-10 or whatever.

E.g, a hospital E.R. registry study centered in Italy showed that ~ 40% of proven heart attack patients had low hs-CRP.

 

[aaron_c]

@Gondwanaland

I don't mean to go off-topic, but I wonder if you could say a little about how b vitamins make you feel funny. For what it is worth, I have felt sleepy from

1. Riboflavin (not riboflavin-5-phosphate): Possibly because it requires ATP...or maybe another nucleotide triphosphate, I can't remember, but it needs the donation of a phosphate, which I think might use up some of our limited ATP. This is just a guess
   
2. Niacin: Sucks up methyl groups, as you probably know.
   
3. B5
4. Folinic Acid: Uses ATP to convert to an "active" folate.

I bring this up partly because the fact that you are not taking most b-vitamins might limit how far my experience speaks to yours.

In regards to the cold hands and feet: This is total speculation, not backed up by any specific study on people with ME, but... Calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) dilates blood vessels in the extremities. At this point I do not know enough to trace increased calcium intake and increased CGRP, although I suspect it is through calcium's interaction with MAPKs, which increase CGRP. (The study I want to look at has a paywall, so I cannot see it just yet.) Nonetheless, according to Wikipedia CGRP has been implicated in migraines and temporomandibular joint disorder, both of which afflict me when I take too much calcium (or vitamin d). Thus, taking calcium out of circulation and putting it into the bones could reduce circulation to your extremities by limiting CGRP, thus making your hands and/or feet cold.

The previous paragraph might not matter all that much at the moment, which is just as well since it is entirely theoretical. Nonetheless, it does provide a way that your cold hands and feet might not be tied to lower T3, which seems like a good thing.

Finally, while I want to tread quite carefully in regards to your issues with blood clotting--I know a little but I haven't studied it much--you might find this article interesting, and in particular this, where Chris Kresser quotes a study that found:

While K1 is preferentially used by the liver to activate blood clotting proteins, K2 is preferentially used by other tissues to deposit calcium in appropriate locations, such as in the bones and teeth, and prevent it from depositing in locations where it does not belong, such as the soft tissues.(Spronk et al., 2003, pp. 531-537)​

I wonder if you could do some testing to see if MK-4 is having an impact on clotting? I mention this because, although blood clotting is certainly something to be careful with, thus far the only problem I can find that vitamin k might cause in regards to clotting seems to be that it would interfere with Warfarin (aka Coumadin). I think that vitamin k is not rate-limiting for blood clotting, although again, my understanding is somewhat tenuous and even if it is true, sometimes the peculiarities of ME changes what enzyme of molecule is rate-limiting in any given cycle. But if vitamin k is not rate-limiting, and if you are not on Warfarin, then I think that even K1 wouldn't cause an increase in clotting. Again, I am not familiar with your particular clotting disorder, so I hope you will regard all of this as being provided "in case it is of interest to someone who knows more."

Regardless of how you proceed, I hope you find some answers.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I actually don't have a clotting disorder, I only have +/- SNPs, no +/+. But I did have an episode when several factors pooled (described above) and caused me 3 blood clots in the left shoulder.

I really believe that I am having an autimmune reaction to vit K though... My pain triggers are high in vit K

I saw you mention heparin - which by the way gets harvested from animal lungs and intestines, from their mast cells.

I had no idea That is why I got so much pain after leaving the hospital. Later I was able to associate the same pain to autoimmune triggers like gluten, and more recently to flax seeds, psyllium and whatnot.

I wonder if all the pain I have since the heparin in 2011 isn't derived from high vit K food like... gluten, flax seeds and psyllium?

My pain has been transiently suppressed by gluten free diet, mB12 and magnesium protocol. Trying RS (PS) and psyllium brought it back big time :thumbdown: Even worse now with K2. I still have some unopened LAG to try

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder if you could say a little about how b vitamins make you feel funny

I think the sleepiness comes from thyroid interactions.
I use mainly this site to gauge my reactions http://www.acu-cell.com/bx2.html
And this page is useful for vit K and cofactors:
http://www.acu-cell.com/acn2.html#adk

Edited to add: today I took a Bcomplex at breakfast and after much sleepiness and brain fog caused by it, the generalized pain seems to finally be subsiding.

 

[aaron_c]

I really believe that I am having an autimmune reaction to vit K though... My pain triggers are high in vit K

today I took a Bcomplex at breakfast and after much sleepiness and brain fog caused by it, the generalized pain seems to finally be subsiding.

mB12 made every pain I ever had disappear completely

This is very interesting!

Do you have any insight into how mB12 helps with pain? I know I have read Rich Van K and others say that fibromyalgia and ME have a high comorbidity, so I wonder if someone from that community might understand it. Do you think you have fibromyalgia? (I am not implying you do. I know very little about fibromyalgia.)

Does it seem like the B vitamins are helping with pain in a way similar to mB12? I suppose I am wondering if somehow the vitamin k is working counter to something in your b-complex--and for now, I will assume it has 5MTHF and I will guess that it is increasing SAMe or else increasing folate levels--as the mB12 would have done by increasing the action of methionine synthase, thus increasing SAMe and converting 5MTHF to THF and releasing it to the general folate pool.

So there is a decent-sized unknown in this theory, which is that I don't know how mB12 helped with pain. I do recall that Yukito reported 5MTHF helping with some of their MK-4-derrived symptoms.

Since longtime,my right eye is astigmatic and nearsighted.My left eye is just nearsighted. After two months of mk-4 I got a blurred vision,like a astigmatism on the left eye,also both eyes muscles worked and accomodated less efficiently.It got better and now it's normal,just nearsighted and astigmatic on the right eye, and nearsighted on the left eye,as always.
It didn't get better thanks to time but because I found some of the things that had been depleted because of mk-4 and repleted it.I used methylfolate methylcobalamin adenosylcobalamin carnitine calcium magnesium manganese,vitamin a and d.and it got better in a few minutes.
The next days, I tried vitamin b5 and B6 and it improved a little bit more,and then time and sleep finished to repair things.
Two weeks ago I tried to take some mk-4 like 100 µg, it made me feel weird,I took some methylfolate and it got better in a few minutes.

I'm not sure what the "weird" feeling is.

Of course, the benefit might be from another b vitamin. In an attempt to stay on topic, Gondwanaland (Izzy) thought we should move this part of the discussion to this thread.

Finally, a bit more food for thought on vitamin K's safety for those with clotting disorders:

From a Life Extension article from 2007 (Emphasis added):

Vitamin K promotes the gamma-carboxylation of certain naturally occurring anticoagulant proteins as well. These proteins, known as proteins C and S, are intimately involved in the delicate balance between coagulation and anticoagulation (23). Low levels of active forms of these proteins produce increased coagulation within blood vessel that can result in abnormal clotting, sometimes with devastating consequences (24). Fortunately, because vitamin K seems to activate the pro-coagulation parts of the pathway simultaneously and proportionately to its activation of the anticoagulation branches, most people maintain fairly normal clotting levels across a wide range of vitamin K status (25).

23. Espana F, Medina P, Navarro S, et al. The multifunctional protein C system. Curr Med Chem Cardiovasc Hematol Agents. 2005 Apr;3(2):119-31.

24.Dahlback B, Villoutreix BO. The anticoagulant protein C pathway. FEBS Lett. 2005 Jun 13;579(15):3310-6.

25. Matsuzaka T, Tanaka H, Fukuda M, et al. Relationship between vitamin K dependent coagulation factors and anticoagulants (protein C and protein S) in neonatal vitamin K deficiency. Arch Dis Child. 1993 Mar;68(3 Spec No):297-302.​

I should add that the study by Matsuzaka et al (the one cited by LEF) seems only to have looked at low vs normal vitamin k status. However, their conclusion might extend to high levels of vitamin k as well:

More remarkable findings are that there was a close correlation between the coagulant (clotting factors) and anticoagulant (protein C) activities, each of which was also correlated with the degree of gammacarboxylation of its precursor (PIVKA-II and gammacarboxy protein C, respectively). These observations imply that the simultaneous gammacarboxylation of both coagulation factors and proteins C and S serves to sustain the balanced activities of coagulation and anticoagulation at various concentrations of vitamin K.​

 

[Gondwanaland]

Do you have any insight into how mB12 helps with pain?

Not really

Do you think you have fibromyalgia?

No. My "main" pain is related to having been injected with heparin in 2011. Not sue if it is bone or vascular pain. It returned big time with MK4. MK also flares uric acid pain (I don't have gout but my UA blood levels are usually slightly above range).

Does it seem like the B vitamins are helping with pain in a way similar to mB12?

Yes, I think so

I will assume it has 5MTHF

That is correct

I'm not sure what the "weird" feeling is.

I can imagine it Her report is very interesting

From a Life Extension article from 2007 (Emphasis added):

Thanks for posting that!

It will require a lot of courage for me to continue taking vit K. Not sure if I can face it right now. It makes me really sad that mB12 and mB9 make me dizzy/sleepy/brain fogged now to counter the inflammation triggered by the MK4. :thumbdown:

@aaron_c I would like to recommend this topic to you regarding the Bs:
No love of B2 here - a warning about riboflavin

 

[Little Bluestem]

I would suggest avoiding horsetail for silica, as it also causes problems for thiamine, which will throw a lot of us with ME off.

I have been taking silica for a year. I recently had the NutrEval test done and my thiamine was at the bottom of the graph.

 

[dannybex]

I have been taking silica for a year. I recently had the NutrEval test done and my thiamine was at the bottom of the graph.

Mine is low too, although I haven't had it tested recently. Anti-thiamine factors (thiaminase) are in a lot of foods and also bacteria. There's a thread on them on here somewhere. And molds/mycotoxins also interfere w/thiamine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have been taking silica for a year. I recently had the NutrEval test done and my thiamine was at the bottom of the graph.

Did you take a B complex during that time?

 

[Little Bluestem]

I was taking the B vitamins individually. I was taking 10 mg of thiamine, which is low. I am increasing it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

New update: A few months ago I experienced tooth reminaralization from magnesium supplementation (70-80%) improvement.
I took MK4 eleven days ago and today I noticed that my tooth is now 95% remineralized

Also noticed fingernails suddenly longer today - and they are much healthier than a year ago!

 

[Crux]

Yes, vitamin K2 is helping me.

It's only been 2 months;and many of the improvements may take a year or so, but I thought I would report some early results.

The greatest result , so far, is increase in energy. ( ability to exercise longer, less PEM *). In a study, K2 has been found to improve mitochondrial function. Parkinson's patients have experienced improvement in fatigue.

Other improvements have been : bleeding of gums stopped, reduced purpura from minor injuries, much less plaque on teeth, and some skin quality improvement. ( K2 may increase testosterone...?....my libido is increasing.)

I'm hoping for : reversal of osteoporosis, neurological improvement, and hopefully, avoidance of cardiovascular disease, as well as certain cancers. There are studies showing K2's involvement with all of these conditions.

I'm taking Carlson K2, MK4 ( Menatetrenone). It comes in 5 mg. capsules. I take ~ 1-2 mgs. daily. ( If I take more, insomnia occurs.)

The only negative side-effect I've had has been insomnia from high dosages.

I did try Thorne's MK4 drops, but I'm extremely sensitive to the MCT oil in it. ....Too bad, because MCT oil can really increase energy. ( I became very anxious and wired trying it in the past.)

I'm wondering if anyone is taking the K2 long term, and having less fatigue.
@Sherlock, I see you've been posting about K2, I would be very interested in your opinion. Thanks.

I appreciate that everyone has been so forthright and descriptive of their experiences here.

* My PEM has also been helped by a couple of courses of antibiotics. I think PEM is another condition with many causes....

 

[Sherlock]

'm wondering if anyone is taking the K2 long term, and having less fatigue.
@Sherlock, I see you've been posting about K2, I would be very interested in your opinion. Thanks.

Hi, @Crux. I've been researching vit K2 to help someone that I know with osteoporosis. Along the way, I've decided to get some for myself to possibly reduce my odds of CVD (I have an Fx.) I decided to do that despite my cynicism over supplements in general (and in particular over the vitamin D hype), because there really seems to be something good here with the K2.

Choosing which form isn't easy. The more I read, the less clear things become. Researchers seem to have moved to MK7 for CVD prevention - at least for now.

I'm also going to look into making something with the natto bacteria (Bacillus subtilis), but using paste from chickpeas instead of using soybeans. The Korean version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheonggukjang uses paste. I think you'd get more production if you just mash the base beforehand. (But then, that'd also make the purported blood-thinning fibrinolytic nattokinase, which might not be good for you. )

Yes, K2 is found in abundance in testes and brain - and high doses of MK4 used with rodents boost testosterone. MK4 might have a broader range of effects than MK7, 8 and 9. Maybe.

Btw, I've seen a report of using a few days of magnesium to counter MK4 induced headaches and insomnia.

Curiously, I saw that the admin at the Ray Peat forum says that K2 did something bad to his teeth.

I haven't yet found a retailer that sells powder. I'm looking into importers, to maybe buy kilo quantities - though anything from China (AliBaba) makes me nervous.

One thing is puzzling, though: why would humans need so much if it is so rare in nature?

Thanks for posting your experiences. You're lucky to have found something that gives quick and observable results. Have you speculated on why you might have had a deficiency (bleeding and purpura etc) ? Gut/absorption problems?

 

[Crux]

Hi @Sherlock ;

Thanks for your thorough reply. I will attempt to respond in kind, but I can easily be imprecise.

I can understand the cynicism with supplements...they usually don't help unless there is some sort of deficiency. Since testing of all sorts can be misleading, I've found that sometimes, I need to trial one to see if there is some change.

With vitamin D, for instance, I've been testing lower and lower over the years. ( docs are a bit obsessed with it right now). Of course there are many studies proving its benefits. I was of a minority of people who suffered strong side effects from it, including mild hypercalcemia.

With vitamin B12, though, my experience has been a marvel. I tested very high in the serum, but had some other blood markers that possibly indicated a deficiency. ( high MCV)

I realize that, asking why, is a good idea. Even when I researched the 'whys' of vitamin deficiencies, I didn't light upon my own possible cause(s), though I suggested it to other folks.

Gut trouble is certainly my primary cause. SIBO, malabsorption, etc. With SIBO, there can be over and under production of vitamins. Also certain microbes rob nutrients for their own proliferation.

From what I've read about vitamin K2, it can be produced in the gut, but even in a healthy gut, it isn't easily absorbed.

Another reason for K2 deficiency nowadays, is that our sources are weakened. Ruminants, and their milks, cheeses, etc. aren't grass fed. They need the K1 to produce K2. ( Although I've read that because of the type of bacteria used to make gouda and brie cheese, K2 is still produced.)

I'm unsure of the efficacy of MK7 over MK4 ; studies vary in results. Who is paying for them?

It could be, again, an individual's own response. I tried some K2 products back in 2008 : natto, butter oil, foods. I didn't pay enough attention, and I was also trying vitamin D. It was confusing.

I've read of peoples' accounts of paradoxical reactions to K2. Someone wrote of increased bleeding. My first guess would be that, maybe it's not needed. There could be issues with missing cofactors, or , the unknown.

I think it's a bright idea to try to produce one's own nutrients with food fermentation. Although, now,in my case, my ill health has limited the way I eat. I now have severe intolerances to some foods. I'm guessing subclinical lactic acidosis, but I cannot have fermented foods, or high starch foods without a negative reaction. ( neuropathy,etc.)

I continue to try to reduce supplements, and have had some success, but some of them are still a must.

 

[Calathea]

I've just started the Thorne MK4, the one with 1mg K2 per drop. I've been on it a few days and am up to 5 drops a day. How do I know how much to increase it to, and how fast to increase it? I'm already on Vitamin D (2000iu), but I recently started carnitine fumarate (500mg) and have just started Vitamin A (5000iu), since I'm vegan and won't be getting these in my diet. So far my sleep quality is noticeably better, at least according to my Fitbit, and I'm generally pretty tired through the day, although I was alrady having an ME flare. Also my teeth are feeling smoother, hurray. My teeth were not in a good state, and the dentist is coming around to look at me in a month.

 

[Calathea]

Yikes, I think the K2 is putting me to sleep in the afternoon! Has this happened to anyone else? Should I switch to having it with supper rather than lunch?