Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

[Sophiedw]

This is quite an old thread but I'm having a spot of difficulty with k2 at the moment. Any help from anybody knowledgeable in the subject would be really greatly appreciated! Especially @Asklipia!

So long story short I've been taking mb12 for 6 - 12 months with some basics and done really well on that then 6 weeks ago reacted very badly to some probiotics which caused almost instantaneous widespread muscle cramping/burning which did not go away and developed into cold sensitivity, brain fog and more.

After going through a month of thinking I'd had an 'immune response' or the bacteria had colonised my gut, trying diet/other probitoics/crying I read about mk-4 and thought I'd give it a shot. Took 15-30mg on the first day and amazingly 80% of the symptoms resolved. On the second day still resolved and took 2mg more and something like 50% of muscle cramps came back (if you can give it such a number) so I assume I had very low vit k to begin with and taking such large amount has depleted something else.

Now I am trying to find what the balance is. Vitamin E helped the same symptoms then also must have depleted some stuff. What could I be missing? I am a lot better than before I took that first vitamin K still but not 100% and the muscle cramps are very intrusive.

Does anybody know how vitamin k functions in the muscle? What the processes and cofactors are?

Best wishes and thank you everyone! This forum has saved my bacon.

 

[zedrexvsyrex]

K2 is also known as menaquinone. Quinones are responsible for transporting electrons down the Electron Transport Chain (ETC) that’s within mitochondria. They transport the electrons from cytochrome complex I & II to cytochrome complex III. What does all of this jumbo jumbo mean and why does it matter? Because the ETC is how our body produces ATP, the universal source of energy in all cells. In the case of the ETC, it’s done via oxidative phosphorylation (meaning it uses oxygen). This basically means it’s more important for aerobic activities (anything that you can continuously do for long periods of time. That includes daily activities, which have been inhibited in many here who have CFS/ME).

If you’ve ever heard of the supplement CoQ10, it functions EXACTLY the same way (in mitochondria anyway). CoQ10 is converted into upiquinone. However is derived from B5 (pantothenic acid), meaning that if you take enough B5, you should be producing enough ubiquinone (unless you you are taking statins for cholesterol, since many of them inhibit CoA).

K2 has MANY other functions though. It’s also fat-soluble, so it’s harder for your body to get rid of. B-vitamins are water soluble, so you should be able to get rid of them just by drinking more water. Taking more B6 might slow things down, as it should lower the amount of magnesium that’s used up. It also might make you feel less energetic though. So instead of taking more B6, you could just increase your intake of Magnesium.

Most of these things I learned from this this thread actually. Here’s the quote they taught me about the ATP production stuff:

More on the role of Vitamin K in the mitochondria:

Cell biology. Vitamin K2 takes charge.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22679087

You can click on the up arrow next to his name and it’ll take you to his post. He quotes the important stuff from the article itself if you have time to read.

 

[gbells]

Vit K2 is unecessary because if you have a healthy gut flora your body makes it. If you are on antibiotics it should be supplemented. If I'm low I've gotten nosebleeds, it is a required substance for blood clotting. If low it cut into my energy but having enough of it does not cure SEIDs.

 

[zedrexvsyrex]

Vit K2 is unecessary because if you have a healthy gut flora your body makes it. If you are on antibiotics it should be supplemented. If I'm low I've gotten nosebleeds, it is a required substance for blood clotting. If low it cut into my energy but having enough of it does not cure SEIDs.

These are wrong assumptions. Firstly, K2 has nothing to do with clotting at all. K1 deals with clotting and the blood and all of that. All it does is normalize your blood, meaning if it’s too thick, it will make it thinner; or if it’s too thin, it will make it thicker. This is why warfarin labels always mention vitamin K.

Secondly, ~90% of the K2 produced by the bacteria within your gut is within the membrane of the bacteria themselves. This means that you actually gain very little of the K2 produced by the guy flora, unless you have certain kinds of bacteria (which typically you can only get through specific probiotics as far ask I know)

Your body *CAN* convert K1 into K2 though by itself. It does so through making menadione, also known as K3. However, menadione is toxic to the human body (which is why in the US, the FDA has banned it). This means that while your body technically is able to convert K1 into K2 (the actual physiological process goes K1 >>> K3 >>> K2 for some reason), it doesn’t want to.

 

[gbells]

These are wrong assumptions. Firstly, K2 has nothing to do with clotting at all. K1 deals with clotting and the blood and all of that.

I have no idea what all this nit picking is about. We eat leafy greens which have K1. Our bacterial symbiotes convert it to K2. If you don't eat enough K1 then you get nosebleeds. I wasn't wrong. If you lack K1 or the bacteria you'll be deficient in K2.

 

[zedrexvsyrex]

I have no idea what all this nit picking is about. We eat leafy greens which have K1. Our bacterial symbiotes convert it to K2. If you don't eat enough K1 then you get nosebleeds. I wasn't wrong. If you lack K1 or the bacteria you'll be deficient in K2.

It’s essentially bioavailability. Just because it’s technically there doesn’t mean your body can absorb it. Just because the bacteria make it, doesn’t mean you absorb it. The vast majority of the K2 they make stays within their cells, rendering it unavailable to us. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

 

[pamojja]

Vit K2 is unecessary because if you have a healthy gut flora your body makes it.

I wasn't wrong. If you lack K1 or the bacteria you'll be deficient in K2.

I think the error is thinking such a sick patient group as ME/CFS would have a healthy gut flora to begin with. For example in my ubiome explorer results:

Vitamin-Producing Microbes:
- Vitamin K (bacteria which use vitamin K1 to produce vitamin K2): 3.30% compared to Selected Samples (These are samples from individuals who report no ailments and high levels of wellness)
Vitamin B9 (folate) producing bacteria: 31.33% compared to Selected Samples

If low it cut into my energy but having enough of it does not cure SEIDs.

Therefore it indeed does not cure ME/CFS, but it may make a big difference to your cardio, bone, kidney, cancer, diabetes and clotting health. In short, all the main causes of death. See a very extensive lists of study references for all these at:

http://www.k-vitamins.com/

 

[gbells]

No, if you lack healthy bacteria then change your diet and use probiotics to fix it. Vit K2 is just a short term step until the underlying problem is fixed.

 

[L'engle]

@Sophiedw I'm also looking into vitamin K for my problems. It's confusing. I guess we have to try a few until something works.

 

[zedrexvsyrex]

No, if you lack healthy bacteria then change your diet and use probiotics to fix it. Vit K2 is just a short term step until the underlying problem is fixed.

I mean the same can be said for probiotics too. You’ll be taking the probiotics for as long you’ll be taking K2, really. It’s pretty hard to change your diet up to such an extent that creates an flourishing environment for specific bacteria to grow.

 

[pamojja]

No, if you lack healthy bacteria then change your diet and use probiotics to fix it. Vit K2 is just a short term step until the underlying problem is fixed.

At the time of that ubiome test I had changed my diet (from vegan to greatest variety of especially plant food, all unprocessed, including eggs, fish and more rarely meat again), have eaten probiotic foods (sauerkraut, yogurt, aged cheese daily; natto, kimchi, kefir.. a little less then daily) and taken probiotics for eight years.

So please don't make such generalized health conclusion (it's one own fault, since allegedly it could be fixed with certain pills or diet only) - unless you report it as what was possible in your case as an anecdotal report only. Or from people you know. But not the general public or me, where it simply doesn't ably.

The other point I have to stress, people with my number of conditions (PAD, COPD, T2D), which made me so radically change my diet, and experience improvements or even remission, are exceptionally rare, for such usually seen as non-reversible chronic and deathly diseases. My GP says I'm his only one. I know of no other of my local personal acquaintances. You implying the underlying problem being simply lack of probiotic pills and bad diet is an unbearable over-simplification, for someone who solved already a multitude of underlying problems.

 

[L'engle]

I seem to get a keyed up anxious feeling from mk-7. I have ordered an mk-4(Menatetrenone ) but it may take a while to arrive. So for now I may go back to taking the Vitamin A without and K until the mk-4 arrives.

 

[SherDa]

This is quite an old thread but I'm having a spot of difficulty with k2 at the moment. Any help from anybody knowledgeable in the subject would be really greatly appreciated! Especially @Asklipia!

So long story short I've been taking mb12 for 6 - 12 months with some basics and done really well on that then 6 weeks ago reacted very badly to some probiotics which caused almost instantaneous widespread muscle cramping/burning which did not go away and developed into cold sensitivity, brain fog and more.

After going through a month of thinking I'd had an 'immune response' or the bacteria had colonised my gut, trying diet/other probitoics/crying I read about mk-4 and thought I'd give it a shot. Took 15-30mg on the first day and amazingly 80% of the symptoms resolved. On the second day still resolved and took 2mg more and something like 50% of muscle cramps came back (if you can give it such a number) so I assume I had very low vit k to begin with and taking such large amount has depleted something else.

Now I am trying to find what the balance is. Vitamin E helped the same symptoms then also must have depleted some stuff. What could I be missing? I am a lot better than before I took that first vitamin K still but not 100% and the muscle cramps are very intrusive.

Does anybody know how vitamin k functions in the muscle? What the processes and cofactors are?

Best wishes and thank you everyone! This forum has saved my bacon.

I get muscle spasms (sometimes quite severe) from K2. They are relieved by taking calcium. Other low calcium symptoms can include palpitations, fatigue, insomnia, pins and needles feelings in the extremities.

 

[L'engle]

I have started taking MK-4 today. So far it doesn't seem to make me keyed up the way the MK-7 did, though it is very soon to say it won't happen over time. I have felt better since stopping the MK-7.

I get muscle spasms (sometimes quite severe) from K2. They are relieved by taking calcium. Other low calcium symptoms can include palpitations, fatigue, insomnia, pins and needles feelings in the extremities.

This is good for me to hear as I am looking for K2 to help me with high calcium symptoms (which are almost the same except that they wear off over time while low calcium symptoms become worse.) I also get a dull ache in the back of my head and neck from high or low calcium.

 

[Sophiedw]

Has anybody got bsd stomach pain, nausea, diarrhoea from mk4? Im not sure if its a deficency of something else, whether or not to push through. Bleurg.

 

[Mick]

Vitamin K2, and all other fat soluble vitamins as well, increase inflammation in my tendons. I don't know why. No other effects noted.

Any idea why K2 might cause/increase tendon inflammation? It's been 11 years since the original post, maybe someone figured this out. Still have to dig through this thread, actually my question might have been already answered.