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Mikemcd, congrats! What dosages did you take of K2-4 and K2-7, and what other supplements did you take?
Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?
- Thread starter Hanna
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I was/am taking maybe 400mcg a day, powder and oil, from three different suppliers. (thought i'd cover all the bases) I also had TREMENDOUS SUCCESS in my battle against tooth decay! I have a rear wisdom tooth that has a painful spot. Over the years food has been trapped there. (between the teeth) It's impossible for a dentist to get into this area. Anyway: Immediately after starting the K2, the feel of my mouth changed. The yeast that usually grows on my tongue almost went away. The spaces between my teeth seemed to open up. I could slosh spit between my teeth like never before. The pain in my wisdom tooth vanished. I actually stopped brushing my teeth with the fluoridated tooth paste. (that had been holding the pain devil away all these 67 years). The X-Factor to the rescue. Weston Price be praised! Hallelujah! http://www.westonaprice.org/
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@Mikemcd do you eat a specific diet? How long did the pain actually last? I could never get past the 1st dose (250mcg) 
However years ago I took 60mcg of MK7 daily for a month and noticed nothing...
However years ago I took 60mcg of MK7 daily for a month and noticed nothing...I don't know. Maybe my body was just waiting for the K2 supplementation? Maybe the yeast in my mouth will "accommodate" and change over to a new strain? Maybe my joints will lime up again? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. (maybe I lucked out) That's why medicine is an inexact science, and the Dr's are still "practicing" medicine. I eat an apple a day, and a nice big (believe it or not) McDonald's Southwest Salad, with grilled chicken. (no "dressing").
Were you taking a total of 400 mcg of both MK-4 & MK-7? Can you break it down by how much separate MK-4 and MK-7 you were taking?
Microgram (mcg) dosages of MK-4 (not MK-7) would be considered fairly low so I'm just curious.
And how many weeks did it take to go from being stiff to limber?
Microgram (mcg) dosages of MK-4 (not MK-7) would be considered fairly low so I'm just curious.
And how many weeks did it take to go from being stiff to limber?
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i am taking 90mcg mk7 for years notice notice. I want to try mk4. i have osteroperosis. Excuse my brain fog but which mk4 is the best?
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Great results - I guess you must have really needed the K2! As posthaste said, the k2-4 is lower then many take. I'd also be interested to know much k2-4 vs k2-7 you took.
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I have osteoporosis and my dr. recommended both K1 and K2 (along with several other things). She recommended the MK-7, but that is what drs in this country usually recommend.
Hi aprilk1869,
Many labs do a test for Osteocalcin, in Europe for example Unilabs does it. BUT: that is not a test for having enough K2! The measure for having sufficient K2 is
undercarboxylated osteocalcin. The lower that is, the better your K2 status.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s007740300025
osteocalcin is produced in this form and then K2 is needed to get it carboxylated, which is the form that is effective in the body.
Usually, this is expressed in research as the ratio of uncarboxylated : carboxylated osteocalcin.
Now, for this I was unable to find a single lab, searching several countries in Europe. (Isn't exactly a wonder when most docs have not heard about K2... Well, it is sad but I can't stop dropping a side kick that most of them are 20y behind the state of the art... Must be like that, as things have to go to the text books, from there to education, from there to the minds of students, from there to practice when they are, many years later, working as docs... So wait 20 years, and then there will be a demand for the test, and then the test will be available in routine labs... )
Many labs do a test for Osteocalcin, in Europe for example Unilabs does it. BUT: that is not a test for having enough K2! The measure for having sufficient K2 is
undercarboxylated osteocalcin. The lower that is, the better your K2 status.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s007740300025
osteocalcin is produced in this form and then K2 is needed to get it carboxylated, which is the form that is effective in the body.
Usually, this is expressed in research as the ratio of uncarboxylated : carboxylated osteocalcin.
Now, for this I was unable to find a single lab, searching several countries in Europe. (Isn't exactly a wonder when most docs have not heard about K2... Well, it is sad but I can't stop dropping a side kick that most of them are 20y behind the state of the art... Must be like that, as things have to go to the text books, from there to education, from there to the minds of students, from there to practice when they are, many years later, working as docs... So wait 20 years, and then there will be a demand for the test, and then the test will be available in routine labs...
)
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Hi everybody,
has anyone had non-refreshing sleep from 1mg mk-4 per day?
(product: Thorne, 1 drop = 1mg K2, contains K2-mk4, edium chain triglycerides, mixed tocopherols)
The non-refreshing sleep at night has nothing to do with sleep after the meal. I know this because I often nap after meals and it doesnt cause any sleep issues in me; and I know this because when I did not have the sleepyness after the meal, the non-refreshing sleep at night comes anywise.
I am aware some people complain of sleep issues after taking mk-7. But what is the mechanism that brings this about? What is different in the people affected? Does anyone have it with mk-4?
Thanks so much for any experiences, theories, links, ...!
ps: my own theories:
a) I depleted some nutrient. (I took vit D 400IU with it and I eat fully enough beta carotene as raw veggies, but little preformed vit A, calcium intake under rdv, B2 too. While B2 and calcium has been mentioned by some on this thread to be beneficial with K2, I cannot believe low intake is the cause in me. Firstly, others take 15 mg K2 or more, I take 1mg. Second, if it was the cause, then many people would have issues. I guess a lot of folks here are on low carb paleo like me and a lowish Ca intake is fairly normal on this. (Btw, low carb paleo + some further things cured me out of a full score myalgic encephalomyelitis. so so happy!! still have other issues where K2 helps)
b) The K2 or the tocopherols or the triglycerides feed some intestinal bad bugs. I have a lot of issues with sibo. it is so bad that I cannot eat any carbs. My low carb paleo helped a lot against sibo, but did not cure. I dont tolerate almost no supps because of intestinal bugs. Now, as I have these issues, I wonder if any ingredient could feed the bugs. I dont think its likely, because the reactions are different in nature.
has anyone had non-refreshing sleep from 1mg mk-4 per day?
(product: Thorne, 1 drop = 1mg K2, contains K2-mk4, edium chain triglycerides, mixed tocopherols)
- first, I took 1 drop (1mg K2) per day for months. no side effect
- then increased to 2-3 drops per day for some weeks -> after intake sometimes sleep immediately after the meal (felt good), but at night, non-refreshing sleep
- reduced intake to 1 drop for some days -> non-refreshing sleep at night.
- paused for 2 weeks.
- tried 1 drop for 1 day -> sleepy immediately after the meal, non-refreshing sleep
The non-refreshing sleep at night has nothing to do with sleep after the meal. I know this because I often nap after meals and it doesnt cause any sleep issues in me; and I know this because when I did not have the sleepyness after the meal, the non-refreshing sleep at night comes anywise.
I am aware some people complain of sleep issues after taking mk-7. But what is the mechanism that brings this about? What is different in the people affected? Does anyone have it with mk-4?
Thanks so much for any experiences, theories, links, ...!
ps: my own theories:
a) I depleted some nutrient. (I took vit D 400IU with it and I eat fully enough beta carotene as raw veggies, but little preformed vit A, calcium intake under rdv, B2 too. While B2 and calcium has been mentioned by some on this thread to be beneficial with K2, I cannot believe low intake is the cause in me. Firstly, others take 15 mg K2 or more, I take 1mg. Second, if it was the cause, then many people would have issues. I guess a lot of folks here are on low carb paleo like me and a lowish Ca intake is fairly normal on this. (Btw, low carb paleo + some further things cured me out of a full score myalgic encephalomyelitis. so so happy!! still have other issues where K2 helps)
b) The K2 or the tocopherols or the triglycerides feed some intestinal bad bugs. I have a lot of issues with sibo. it is so bad that I cannot eat any carbs. My low carb paleo helped a lot against sibo, but did not cure. I dont tolerate almost no supps because of intestinal bugs. Now, as I have these issues, I wonder if any ingredient could feed the bugs. I dont think its likely, because the reactions are different in nature.
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Take a look into high histamine. K2 is probably having an excitatory effect and adding to it. I am precisely preparing a supplement combo for myself to address histamines (B2+B6+minerals). Low carb paleo diets are very high in amines.
Interesting!! When I started low carb paleo in 2014, it saved me from myalgic encephalomyelitis. muscle pains, weakness, etc gone. At that time, I had my DAO measured before and after, it went from 7.2 to 42 kU/L (normal: >10). But even more convincing than labs, I started tolerating high amines foods such as ripe fermented olives. Ripe olives is really the top of lots of amines. Before, impossible to eat, I tolerated only green olives. In brief: while low carb paleo may be high in amines, my free capacity to degrade them increased 6 times. Our genes are essentially identical with that of stone age people. In lack of fridges, they fermented everything. So, we must be well prepared to eat tons of amines contained in fermented foods. Unless something kills this ability in us. Leaky gut f.ex. decreases DAO so much that researchers are using it as an index for leaky gut. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21225906
Btw I tried also all kinds of supplements, designed combos like you do, etc. My "supplement cemetery" contains over 100 pieces!! Seriously. Some helped a bit, some harmed a lot, none solved anything (one exception: B12+natural folate saved me from brain fog. Thanks Rich Konynenburg's paper)
(I do not write this to convince you of anything. Everone's problem is different. This is just my story, and also that of Chris Kresser, the paleo doc. He was sick for 10 years, also tried tons of sups, tells the stories about his "sups cemetery" and paleo solved then the issues)
Hey you know what???? Just writing this text it comes to me: You are right, this is damn histamine!!! I had anywise noticed that I had palpitations during the last weeks. I did not make the connection w/o your help, but I just went so crazy high in my favourite ripe olives brand (super tasty Greek olives mmmmmm + listening some Zeibekiko to it ). I mean, earlier I could not eat more than 1 ripe olive, so now I enjoy it to the fullest... Today I had the absolute top of some 300g. Imagine 300g of ripe olives!!! I can eat this stuff like others drink water. Well I think I can, but my body apparently does not think so.... ) I make a trial the next days, reduce olives to normal amounts.
Thank you thank you thank you for opening up my eyes!!!!! Can I give +100 likes???
Btw I tried also all kinds of supplements, designed combos like you do, etc. My "supplement cemetery" contains over 100 pieces!!
Seriously. Some helped a bit, some harmed a lot, none solved anything (one exception: B12+natural folate saved me from brain fog. Thanks Rich Konynenburg's paper)(I do not write this to convince you of anything. Everone's problem is different. This is just my story, and also that of Chris Kresser, the paleo doc. He was sick for 10 years, also tried tons of sups, tells the stories about his "sups cemetery" and paleo solved then the issues)
Hey you know what???? Just writing this text it comes to me: You are right, this is damn histamine!!! I had anywise noticed that I had palpitations during the last weeks. I did not make the connection w/o your help, but I just went so crazy high in my favourite ripe olives brand (super tasty Greek olives mmmmmm
+ listening some Zeibekiko to it ). I mean, earlier I could not eat more than 1 ripe olive, so now I enjoy it to the fullest... Today I had the absolute top of some 300g. Imagine 300g of ripe olives!!! I can eat this stuff like others drink water. Well I think I can, but my body apparently does not think so.... ) I make a trial the next days, reduce olives to normal amounts.Thank you thank you thank you for opening up my eyes!!!!! Can I give +100 likes???
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You tolerate more amines because your body doesn't need to divert B6 for insulin sensitivity anymore like when you ate flour and sugar. Until you overload it with amines and oxalates - olives are probably the food with the highest oxalate content.
My supplement cemetery now has less than 100 pieces because I just tossed the more harmful ones (except for K2-MK4 which I still hope to tolerate). Calcium and oregano saved me from brain fog.
In my experience, paleo solves the issues until they show up again.
I think you are running into serious B6 depletion! Just a piece of advice on it, if you need to take it, be sure to take it with B2, and really low doses suffice, the recommended daily intake for both of them is 1,3mg. My new Bcomplex will contain 2mg B2 1mg B6 1mg P5P (and even lower amounts of the other Bs) + minerals
Btw I tried also all kinds of supplements, designed combos like you do, etc. My "supplement cemetery" contains over 100 pieces!! Seriously. Some helped a bit, some harmed a lot, none solved anything (one exception: B12+natural folate saved me from brain fog. Thanks Rich Konynenburg's paper)
(I do not write this to convince you of anything. Everone's problem is different. This is just my story, and also that of Chris Kresser, the paleo doc. He was sick for 10 years, also tried tons of sups, tells the stories about his "sups cemetery" and paleo solved then the issues)
Seriously. Some helped a bit, some harmed a lot, none solved anything (one exception: B12+natural folate saved me from brain fog. Thanks Rich Konynenburg's paper)(I do not write this to convince you of anything. Everone's problem is different. This is just my story, and also that of Chris Kresser, the paleo doc. He was sick for 10 years, also tried tons of sups, tells the stories about his "sups cemetery" and paleo solved then the issues)
In my experience, paleo solves the issues until they show up again.
I think you are running into serious B6 depletion! Just a piece of advice on it, if you need to take it, be sure to take it with B2, and really low doses suffice, the recommended daily intake for both of them is 1,3mg. My new Bcomplex will contain 2mg B2 1mg B6 1mg P5P (and even lower amounts of the other Bs) + minerals
Thanks! I will test now low amines (no olives) / B6+B2 to find out if I tolerate the mk-4.
Interesting what you write about paleo, insuline and B6. So then essentially, paleo folks may have tolerated high amines foods (such as fermented food) because their food had a lower glyc. index.
You write "In my experience, paleo solves the issues until they show up again°. May I ask you a couple of questions? - How long did it take in your case? What variety of paleo did you do? Regarding carbs, have you tried normal paleo, low carb paleo or keto-paleo? What issues came back? Sounds like I may be looking into issues soon... I am very interested, because paleo forums usually do not have those people who left paleo.
Interesting what you write about paleo, insuline and B6. So then essentially, paleo folks may have tolerated high amines foods (such as fermented food) because their food had a lower glyc. index.
You write "In my experience, paleo solves the issues until they show up again°. May I ask you a couple of questions? - How long did it take in your case? What variety of paleo did you do? Regarding carbs, have you tried normal paleo, low carb paleo or keto-paleo? What issues came back? Sounds like I may be looking into issues soon... I am very interested, because paleo forums usually do not have those people who left paleo.
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Be very careful with that. B6 can overstimulate the thyroid to exhaustion. I am not sure for how long one needs to take vit K2-mk4, do you think you still need it? Why?
I will address your other questions elsewhere, or if you want you can start a new thread about diet and tag me there.
Just a warning: I have NOT found the holy grail, just a few scattered explanations.
I will address your other questions elsewhere, or if you want you can start a new thread about diet and tag me there.
Just a warning: I have NOT found the holy grail, just a few scattered explanations.
It depends on the condition for which one uses K2. I have downloaded a ton of publications on K2. K2 improves so many different conditions. But in most cases, measurable successes are slow. You always hear stories like K2 did this or that wonder in 2 months. But when your read the publications, results are more often than not in 3 years. It may be irrelevant for you, but just as an example: I recommended it to my mom for increasing her joint space. There is a study that K2 does that, in deficient people (in Western countries almost 100% are), in 3 years: http://ard.bmj.com/content/67/11/1570.short
Or here is my case for using K2:
While I have cured my ME, I still have severe hemodynamic abnormalities that keep me in bed. Probably some blood vessels / my liver suffered injury from all the ME-related inflammation. Imagine, when I stand up after a meal, blood flow in my superior mesenteric artery decreases (measured in me by doppler ultrasound) to a point where I get bad cramps and digestion probs. Healthy people get this when they decrease their splanchnic circulation by running a full marathon. (Then you see those infamous nasty pics where the liquid shit runs down the legs of the runners, who forsake the medal if they spend time on the toilet .) The mechanism is: if you are in vertical position, then, compared to supine, the splanchnic vessels have to relax a lot to decrease flow resistance such that adequate flow is still maintained:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9347197
This doesnt work in me. The measurements show the point where the blood vessels do not relax is inside my liver. There are many possible causes:
http://tpis.upmc.com/tpislibrary/dlp/CHAP11h.html
One is hardening of blood vessels inside the liver. So, for hardening of blood vessels, K2 does wonders, but again in 3 years:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25694037
This is my last battle to fight before returning to a happy life and hopefully have a family for which I am longing so much.
These may not be your problems. But if you want to find out dosage and duration for you, send me a paper and I can probably send you back the full text pdf. Do you know how to find research papers? (you are super well informed, so I guess I don't need to make this post even longer by any details on that)
Or here is my case for using K2:
While I have cured my ME, I still have severe hemodynamic abnormalities that keep me in bed. Probably some blood vessels / my liver suffered injury from all the ME-related inflammation. Imagine, when I stand up after a meal, blood flow in my superior mesenteric artery decreases (measured in me by doppler ultrasound) to a point where I get bad cramps and digestion probs. Healthy people get this when they decrease their splanchnic circulation by running a full marathon. (Then you see those infamous nasty pics where the liquid shit runs down the legs of the runners, who forsake the medal if they spend time on the toilet
.) The mechanism is: if you are in vertical position, then, compared to supine, the splanchnic vessels have to relax a lot to decrease flow resistance such that adequate flow is still maintained:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9347197
This doesnt work in me. The measurements show the point where the blood vessels do not relax is inside my liver. There are many possible causes:
http://tpis.upmc.com/tpislibrary/dlp/CHAP11h.html
One is hardening of blood vessels inside the liver. So, for hardening of blood vessels, K2 does wonders, but again in 3 years:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25694037
This is my last battle to fight before returning to a happy life and hopefully have a family for which I am longing so much.
These may not be your problems. But if you want to find out dosage and duration for you, send me a paper and I can probably send you back the full text pdf. Do you know how to find research papers? (you are super well informed, so I guess I don't need to make this post even longer by any details on that)
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My B6 pill contains a well-balanced amount of many different B vitamins, and its tolerability and safety is established in over 1000 years of perfectly unscientific and non-clinical happiness of eating it . It's a tasty Greek dish called grilled pig liver.
100g has 0.7mg B6 and 3mg B2. And I will vary it with other types of offal to avoid getting too much vit A. Chicken liver even better: less vit A (and 0.8mg B6, 2mg B2). And, I wouldn't eat liver (or, I would but buy only organic products) if I would live not in Switzerland, which has the strictest animal farming laws on earth. Those horror stories of animals being walking antibio deposits raised in small cages so they cannot even turn around do not exist here.
A funny paleo-biased side-kick:
I read a story of a researcher/doctor going to naturally living Indians in Canada decades ago. He found the Indians eating offal and bone marrow, while giving the muscle meat, devoid of vitamins, to the dogs:
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/bone-marrow/
Conclusions:
1. All meat people usually eat today is dog food.
2. I award regular offal consumption (assuming its non-antibio raised) GRAS status. If the red Indians did it for thousands of years, they will know if muscle meat or offal is better food for humans.
- ok this was my favourite side kick against SAD and pills
I am very interested in your scattered explanations!! But you are right, why sbdy left paleo is an off-topic here. Not only on this thread but generally on any thread on a cfs/me forum. Now, I think our personal pages have a sub-page where one can post. What do you think, is that a better place? Would you post it there? I am looking forward to it. (While I am a paleo fan, I am not interested in cheering from other paleo fans, I can get that by the dozen on any paleo forum. I am much more interested in your apparently less good experiences and reasons to leave it.)
. It's a tasty Greek dish called grilled pig liver. 100g has 0.7mg B6 and 3mg B2. And I will vary it with other types of offal to avoid getting too much vit A. Chicken liver even better: less vit A (and 0.8mg B6, 2mg B2). And, I wouldn't eat liver (or, I would but buy only organic products) if I would live not in Switzerland, which has the strictest animal farming laws on earth. Those horror stories of animals being walking antibio deposits raised in small cages so they cannot even turn around do not exist here.
A funny paleo-biased side-kick:
I read a story of a researcher/doctor going to naturally living Indians in Canada decades ago. He found the Indians eating offal and bone marrow, while giving the muscle meat, devoid of vitamins, to the dogs:
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/bone-marrow/
Conclusions:
1. All meat people usually eat today is dog food.
2. I award regular offal consumption (assuming its non-antibio raised) GRAS status. If the red Indians did it for thousands of years, they will know if muscle meat or offal is better food for humans.
- ok this was my favourite side kick against SAD and pills
I am very interested in your scattered explanations!!
But you are right, why sbdy left paleo is an off-topic here. Not only on this thread but generally on any thread on a cfs/me forum. Now, I think our personal pages have a sub-page where one can post. What do you think, is that a better place? Would you post it there? I am looking forward to it. (While I am a paleo fan, I am not interested in cheering from other paleo fans, I can get that by the dozen on any paleo forum. I am much more interested in your apparently less good experiences and reasons to leave it.)
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Hi Gondwanaland,
how are you? Imagine, I tried your idea to reduce amines really strictly. After 3 weeks, tried 1 drop Thorne K2 again (1mg K2). Result: exactly the same. Poor sleep as before. Re-introduce ripe olives, choke-full of amines: no worsening at all.
Sooooo sad! I was almost sure amines was the problem.
I have a new idea, though:
I get the exactly same issue from potassium supplements. Tried different forms (Kcl tabs, elemental as drops under the tongue ...), exactly the same unrefreshing sleep issue every time, just as with K2.
What could they have in common? My first guess is that potassium and K2 both heavily influence Ca metabolism.
What does this mean? What to conclude? I cannot yet connect the dots fully.
how are you? Imagine, I tried your idea to reduce amines really strictly. After 3 weeks, tried 1 drop Thorne K2 again (1mg K2). Result: exactly the same. Poor sleep as before. Re-introduce ripe olives, choke-full of amines: no worsening at all.
Sooooo sad! I was almost sure amines was the problem.
I have a new idea, though:
I get the exactly same issue from potassium supplements. Tried different forms (Kcl tabs, elemental as drops under the tongue ...), exactly the same unrefreshing sleep issue every time, just as with K2.
What could they have in common? My first guess is that potassium and K2 both heavily influence Ca metabolism.
What does this mean? What to conclude? I cannot yet connect the dots fully.
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Hey, that was a very interesting reasoning. I was never able to supplement with potassium. After supplementing with calcium I could sleep well for several weeks in a row. I read that Ca and Mg are needed for melatonin synthesis. Also Ca calms histamines down (same thing for B5), I read once about the exact mechanism of Calcium (+vit C) preventing mast cell degranulation, but now I forgot the details.
Mind you, I could only take Calcium for like 2-3 days and had to stop because I think it was causing my blood to clot (I have high fibrinogen). But calcium was a game-changer for me. Took care of brain fog. Then I noticed that fresh oregano leaves had a similar effect, so I added fresh oregano leaves to my dinner salad for several months in a row, until my liver had enough of it (I would get heavy eyelids).
I am sorry I have never started a thread to continue our discussion... I got a bit overwhelmed from the effect of some vitamins I took (hyper and then hypothyroid...). But I love the way your mind works, and look forward to exchanging experiences!
Calcium is definetly a MUST to have on board when supplementing K2
Mind you, I could only take Calcium for like 2-3 days and had to stop because I think it was causing my blood to clot (I have high fibrinogen). But calcium was a game-changer for me. Took care of brain fog. Then I noticed that fresh oregano leaves had a similar effect, so I added fresh oregano leaves to my dinner salad for several months in a row, until my liver had enough of it (I would get heavy eyelids).
I am sorry I have never started a thread to continue our discussion... I got a bit overwhelmed from the effect of some vitamins I took (hyper and then hypothyroid...). But I love the way your mind works, and look forward to exchanging experiences!
Calcium is definetly a MUST to have on board when supplementing K2
Great point! So, next experiment: Ca + K2 = happiness
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