The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
Simon McGrath concludes his blog about the remarkable Prof George Davey Smith's smart ideas for understanding diseases, which may soon be applied to ME/CFS.
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Feeling sleepy from B vitamins

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I thought I was ready to retry with the basics and soon be able to feel the benetifts from mB12 again...

    Since Saturaday I have been trialing with 1/2 dose of the following B complex:

    B1 15mg
    B2 5mg
    Niacin 20mg
    B5 30mg
    P5P 10mg
    B7 300mcg
    magnesium 10mg

    Then took 100mcg of mB12 + fifteen micrograms of mfolate which made me even more sleepy but with fast gears turning close to the xiphoid process.

    On Sunday I added 10mg of benfothiamine but felt no effects from it.

    Yesterday and today I took no Bs and feel sleepy as well.

    I had been playing with hyB12, mB12 and folinic sublingual drops for a month (+ Bcomplex above) with the same results (feeling sleepy).

    The things that have made me more alert lately have been:

    -silymarin (can't take very often or a really effective dose due to strong detox and end up brain fogged again, but it stabilized my body temperature)
    -multimineral (waiting for a new delivery)
    -digestive enzymes (waiting for a new delivery without protease as alerted by @picante )

    It seems like anything I take works for a short while and then I start detoxing and feel no more benefits at all.

    I would be thankful for any suggestions ( @ahmo coffee enemas, I know ;)).
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Ha ha.
    I wonder if this means that your body is overloaded w/ toxins, and therefore attempts to get rid of them whenever there's a stimulus??:confused:
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    OK, just got my bloodwork and I have low T3.

    Coffee enemas would definetly help.
     
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    That would totally explain your sleepiness! I would lay off any coffee enemas while your thyroid has a chance to respond to the medication. After a few weeks, maybe, see if you still want to. I'm guessing not. And see if your body temperature will be more stable (and likely higher), too, with or without the silymarin. (My average morning temp went up about 1.5 degrees F with 50 mg T4.) Good going, getting the lab work done!
     
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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Silymarin definetly helped with the adrenal type of temperature variation! I have been feeling very comfortable re temperature, but then it is late spring here and already very hot. Will have my temps measured, thanks, Crit! :thumbsup:
     
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  6. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Hi Yall,

    @Gondwanaland thought it would be a good idea to move this conversation from "private" to a thread. The conversation arose from this thread on vitamin K, but these bits were not about vitamin k.

     
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  7. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    First, I want to say that it sounds like you might still in the process of getting some sort of toxin out of your body...and if this is the case, it makes it even more likely that I am missing something here.

    Could you describe that bit about fast gears in a different way?

    Folinic acid uses ATP to enter the rest of the folic acid cycle via conversion to 5,10 methenylTHF, so it is not surprising that this would make you sleepy.

    I have read two guesses about why mB12 might make people sleepy. The first is that SAMe donates a methyl group in the rate limiting step that turns serotonin into melatonin. This might produce enough melatonin to make you sleepy. Have you taken melatonin, and if so, what happened?

    EDIT: I said that THF is used to make serotonin. I misread a diagram! It was BH4, converted to q-BH2.

    For what it is worth, I tried taking melatonin last year and taking maybe half a mg--the lowest dose pills I could find were 1mg--made me exhausted for...perhaps 12 hours or so? I continued on the dose, however, and developed a tolerance. I assume what happened is that I was so starved of melatonin that my body had produced a high number of melatonin receptors. Melatonin inhibits cortisol release: See this study: Melatonin exerts direct inhibitory actions on ACTH responses in the human adrenal gland.

    The second guess as to why mB12 would make one sleepy is that mB12 could help inactivate histamine in the central nervous system through converting 5MTHF to THF, which is then converted to DHF by a methyltransferase which turns histamine into glutamate. If you have enough manganese and B6, the glutamate could then be turned into GABA. I am not suggesting that heightened GABA would knock you out, but if you had high histamine, lowering it might? This second mechanism seems much less likely to me.

    Very cool observation on silymarin. I skipped my silymarin after lunch today and had cold feet...perhaps this is why?

    You digestive enzymes didn't include betaine, right?

    Was this "free" T3? Was your free T4 low as well?

    Finally: For whatever it is worth, I completely support your reservations about vitamin K. I also continue to hope that it will prove to be an important piece of the puzzle for myself and others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks, @aaron_c I will come back soon for a detailed reply!
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I have found several names to it upon researching: detox, die-off, candida, SIBO, HIT, etc o_O
    It is something happening between the liver lobes :wide-eyed:
    Interestin, it ould be that, could be ammonia building up...
    Sorry, I did not meant THAT kind of sleepy. When I took continued high doses of mB12 I felt really sleepy. But now that I have been retrying with low doses, it's more like a "brain-fog sleepy". I never took melatonin.
    This is an excellent explanation for the real sleepiness :thumbsup:
    I love silymarin and am really happy to be able to tolerate it now.
    No betaine, just pepsin, bromelain and protease. I found that I tolerate the protease very well with dinner ( @picante ). Will retry it with lunch as well :cautious:
    Unaltered FT4 and T3 (not tested FT3 at that time) was below range, but later I found out it was due to eating asparagus... But I found great benefit from changing the T4 only to T4+T3.
    I am more than willing to take it at least once a week, but I will have to establish a powerful anti-inflammatory supplementation. Suggestions?
    I currently take fishoil:thumbsup:, Gamma E:love: and astaxanthin (haven't noticed nothing from it).
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think I got it:
    by Vegas:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    @Gondwanaland, I think you should attribute that quote above to it's rightful origin (vegas). I didn't write that quote.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    If you click the quote you'll be redirected to Vegas post, but I added his name now, thanks!
     
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  13. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Vegas, might we snag you into our discussion? I found your post very interesting, but I do not think I understood most of it.

    If I read you right, you are saying that uric acid increases superoxide and peroxynitrite production. I don't know a great deal about uric acid, but wikipedia (citing a study I cannot immediately get access to) says that it accounts for "over half the antioxidant capacity of blood plasma" in humans. Are you saying that we produce more free radicals, in effect, because we have the increased antioxidant capacity to accommodate that? Or am I missing something important about what heightened uric acid does?

    Talking about the results of decreased xanthine oxidase activity and this decreased uric acid levels, you said:
    Again, I am confused, because wikipedia has me thinking that uric acid is an antioxidant, so I do not understand how lowered uric acid levels would "reduce the demands on the entire antioxidant network." In particular, I would be curious to know what dehydrogenase enzyme(s) you had in mind.

    Would you mind explaining this more thoroughly, or perhaps linking to a page where you have already explained it? It seems important, but the link between butyrate and pretty much any part of purine metabolism is a mystery to me. I am only aware of butyrate as something that can aid in the excretion of ammonia, and also as a source of energy for the colon.

    Finally, I hope you can help me wrap my head around this detail. It seems like if increased diuresis from caffeine was compensating for caffeine's effect on xanthine oxidase, caffeine would need to increase production of uric acid, not decrease it. Put another way: It seems like you are saying that the increased urine volume from caffeine is "compensating" for an extra high uric acid level, when in fact you said that " caffeine can reduce the activity of xanthine oxidase." What am I missing?
     
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  14. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland: You have probably already read this post by Vegas, but as they mention "severe food intolerance" and "weight loss"--which to my understanding is atypical in ME/CFS, I think we usually gain weight--I thought it might be of interest. Not that it suggests anything you haven't already tried, of course.
     
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  15. WillowJ

    WillowJ คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl

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    Thanks for the interesting repost there. :) There is indeed a significant subset of PWME having weight loss, including severe weight loss (enough to scare a doctor, if we can manage to get in), which may be associated with severe food intolerance, malabsorption/maldigestion, etc.
     
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  16. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    There are plenty of people with ME/CFS who can't keep weight on. Often such patients are suspected of having anorexia nervosa by mainstream docs. But you are right, it is less typical than the abnormal weight gain most of us experience. The latter group gets accused of being depressed and overeating and told to exercise and lose weight and all problems will go away. Both groups are unable to extract usable energy from food, it would appear, but one group seems to develop malabsorption issues so they keep wasting away while the weight gain type seems to just store everything they eat as fat.

    Personally, since my crash, I can eat as little as 1400 calories a day and not lose any weight at all. If I restrict food intake in any way I just become even more weak and dizzy, muscles feel more acidic and I urinate continuously leading to even worse problems with low blood volume and electrolyte wasting.
     
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  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Sorry, lots of questions and none too simple to answer succinctly, at least today. Uric acid is both an anti and pro-oxidant. In some instances I am talking about negative expression of a gene not the chemical coordinate.
    The link between the purine metabolism relates to the PDHC. Butyrate increases the capacity of the nitrogen /purine metabolism in a number of different ways, both direct and indirect. At a sub-cellular level, this has been shown to occur via enhanced expression of the entire pyruvate dehydrogenase complex.

    Perhaps you can start by reading this:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0006759
     
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