Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hipsman]

Update: Started new autovaccine course (details about the vaccine in this post), first dose was on 17th November, today was second dose (10 shots in total, every other day).

Since I got first shot 2 days ago, I've been feeling very relaxed to the point that not doing anything doesn't bother me at all, like previously I would be alarmed and worried all the time, but now I'm just indifferent, it's like my nervous system stopped being attacked by something and decided to relax after a few years of being under stress.

This improvement is very different to any other improvements I experienced in the past, usually I would get bump in energy levels & less brain fog, but remained in this alarmed and worried state!

 

[Hipsman]

By the way, 3 out of 4 bacteria in the vaccine were cultured from my nose and throat swabs, specifically: Streptococcus pyogenes, Staphylococcus aureus, Streptococcus pneumoniae

So, I guess they could have been the main culprits, but this is just a guess, too early to know for sure

 

[bensmith]

Amazing, congrats. Thanks.

 

[Hip]

3 out of 4 bacteria in the vaccine were cultured from my nose and throat swabs

That makes me think I should also swab my nose and throat, and see which bacterial species I can culture and identify on chromogenic agar. So far I have only done urine cultures.

 

[Hipsman]

That makes me think I should also swab my nose and throat, and see which bacterial species I can culture and identify on chromogenic agar. So far I have only done urine cultures.

I guess yes, thou I think I am unusual case because of this, in 2019 I was diagnosed (among other things) by one doc as having PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal infections), he did the diagnosis based on that I had neural ticks + Streptococcus pyogenes in one of the swabs, then he did Antihyaluronidase test to confirm that Streptococcus was "active" (I remember this vaguely, I wrote about adventures with my nose way back in 2019 here) the Doc wanted to use IV antibiotics for 1 month everyday + other questionable treatments, so I left him.

Also, I have some mucous sliding down by throat every 20 minutes and Dr. Igor Markov ordered a culture for this mucous too, so it was actually mucous, nose and throat swabs, 3 separate ones. The "mucous swab" had the most bacteria, so probably important swab to do (that is if you have such mucous problem like I do)

 

[Guwop2]

I tried the 30 second dip-slide test with the UrinAX CL/MC/E (CLED/MacConkey/Enterococus (by Axonlab)) and grew some spores on the 'CL' agar (if 1 = CL in on this slide dip). I cannot interepret this result, but if i were to guess it means that these bacteria was present in my kidneys? (not clear on what CL stands for though, anyone know?)

 

[Hip]

Also, I have some mucous sliding down by throat every 20 minutes and Dr. Igor Markov ordered a culture for this mucous too, so it was actually mucous, nose and throat swabs, 3 separate ones. The "mucous swab" had the most bacteria, so probably important swab to do (that is if you have such mucous problem like I do)

That's interesting. I tend to get mucus sliding down my throat especially in the morning (this called post-nasal drip). This post-nasal drip appeared after I caught the coxsackievirus B4 which triggered my ME/CFS.

 

[Hipsman]

I tend to get mucus sliding down by throat especially in the morning

Same!

 

[Hip]

I tried the 30 second dip-slide test with the UrinAX CL/MC/E (CLED/MacConkey/Enterococus (by Axonlab)) and grew some spores on the 'CL' agar (if 1 = CL in on this slide dip). I cannot interepret this result, but if i were to guess it means that these bacteria was present in my kidneys? (not clear on what CL stands for though)

Excellent! You are now the 7th ME/CFS patient to be found positive for bacteria in their urine, which is 7 out of 7 positive. No ME/CFS patients so far found negative.

We should really be testing some healthy controls as well (such as our family or friends) just to get some statistics on these.

Those spots on your agar are called bacterial colonies, by the way, rather than spores. Spores are something different, dormant forms of bacteria that some bacterial species make, which are very resistant to adverse environmental conditions like heat.


CL/MC/E refers to the type of agars on your dipslide:

CL = CLED agar
MC = MacConkey agar
E = Enterococcus agar

Each agar is specialized for growing certain types of bacteria. Urine bacterial culture tests usually use CLED and MacConkey agars. So if you have a dipslide with CLED and MacConkey, that's perfect for urine testing.



In terms of identifying the species of bacteria you have growing on your dipslide CLED agar, this is not easy. I managed to buy a special type of agar which turns different colors, depending on the species of bacteria growing on it (this is known as chromogenic agar). But I could not find any places online which sell chromogenic agar to the public, they only sell to organizations. I had to pretend I was an organization.

 

[Hip]

I just had an idea about a possible way to get the bacteria on your agar identified:

As we know, Dr Markov says in kidney dysbiosis, there is usually not enough bacteria in the urine for a regular lab urine culture test to detect. So we cannot use regular urine culture to isolate our bacteria, we have to use Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine test.

But, what if after isolating and growing some bacteria on the dipslide agar, one were to transfer this bacteria back into a fresh new urine sample, so that the urine now has extra bacteria in it, and then send that urine to a lab for a regular urine bacterial culture test?

The lab urine test would most likely detect and identify the added bacterium (or bacteria, if you isolated more than one species on your dipslides), because it is now present in the urine in higher numbers.

I think some labs give you a plastic urine sample container to fill in the morning, and then take in to the lab. So you could fill this sample container with fresh urine in the morning, and then add the extra bacteria from your dipslide agar.

You can transfer bacteria from agar to a liquid solution like urine using a cotton swab (like a Q-Tip). You just gently dab the swab into the bacterial colonies growing on the agar, and then place the swab into the solution. In the solution, you twist the swab with your fingers while pushing it against the side of the container, to release the bacteria into the solution.

Probably best to do this using a private lab, and not through your doctor, because when the urine test comes back positive for bacteria, that will of course be a false positive. If you do it via your doctor, he may want to give you antibiotics.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Excellent! You are now the 7th ME/CFS patient to be found positive for bacteria in their urine, which is 7 out of 7 positive. No ME/CFS patients so far found negative.

We should really be testing some healthy controls as well (such as our family or friends) just to get some statistics on these.

Those spots on your agar are called bacterial colonies, by the way, rather than spores. Spores are something different, dormant forms of bacteria that some bacterial species make, which are very resistant to adverse environmental conditions like heat.


CL/MC/E refers to the type of agars on your dipslide:

CL = CLED agar
MC = MacConkey agar
E = Enterococcus agar

Each agar is specialized for growing certain types of bacteria. Urine bacterial culture tests usually use CLED and MacConkey agars. So if you have a dipslide with CLED and MacConkey, that's perfect for urine testing.



In terms of identifying the species of bacteria you have growing on your dipslide CLED agar, this is not easy. I managed to buy a special type of agar which turns different colors, depending on the species of bacteria growing on it (this is known as chromogenic agar). But I could not find any places online which sell chromogenic agar to the public, they only sell to organizations. I had to pretend I was an organization.

I had a normal UTI urine test recently that was negative - is that the same as what this is?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

But, what if after isolating and growing some bacteria on the dipslide agar, one were to transfer this bacteria back into a fresh new urine sample, so that the urine now has extra bacteria in it, and then send that urine to a lab for a regular urine bacterial culture test?

That's an excellent idea!

 

[Hip]

I had a normal UTI urine test recently that was negative - is that the same as what this is?

Are you asking is a normal urine test the same as Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine test? No, the normal urine test is not sensitivity enough; a normal test can detect infection, but not dysbiosis.

More info in the section "Detection of Nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS" of this post.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Are you asking is a normal urine test the same as Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine test? No, the normal urine test is not sensitivity enough; a normal test can detect infection, but not dysbiosis.

More info in the section "Detection of Nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS" of this post.

Ah ok thanks Hip. It would for sure be good to see some healthy controls do this as well.

 

[5vforest]

For anyone in the US (and maybe elsewhere too?), MicrogenDX has a very sensitive qPCR for urine testing that I have used when standard cultures were not sensitive enough.

 

[Hipsman]

But, what if after isolating and growing some bacteria on the dipslide agar, one were to transfer this bacteria back into a fresh new urine sample, so that the urine now has extra bacteria in it, and then send that urine to a lab for a regular urine bacterial culture test?

Maybe some labs would even offer straight up identifying the bacteria on the agar?

 

[Guwop2]

The lab urine test would most likely detect and identify the added bacterium (or bacteria, if you isolated more than one species on your dipslides), because it is now present in the urine in higher numbers.

Once we have identified the bacterium/bacteria do you know if is it then possible to have an autovaccine made of it?

 

[Hip]

Once we have identified the bacterium/bacteria do you know if is it then possible to have an autovaccine made of it?

Yes, once you have isolated and identified the bacteria, it's then possible for the Markov Clinic to make an autovaccine from it. At the moment, I am looking into the logistics of becoming a remote patient of Dr Markov (see this earlier post), so that you do not have to travel to Kyiv.

As I understand it, the more different species of bacteria you can isolate from your urine, the better the result, as autovaccines can be prepared for each bacterium. In my case, there were 4 different bacteria in my urine cultures, and the clinic wants to make vaccines which target each one. My bacteria are:

• Enterococcus faecalis
• Klebsiella pneumonia
• Pseudomonas aeruginosa
• Staphylococcus

So if we can sort out the logistics, the clinic are going to make a 1-in-3 autovaccine which targets the first three bacteria in the list, and they will supply me with the clinic's own off-the-shelf Staphylococcus vaccine (not an autovaccine).


I did around 8 dipslide tests over a period of a few weeks to isolate these bacteria. Dr Markov's standard 3 day test may not detect all the bacteria you have, so it's worth continuing beyond the 3 days to see if more bacterial species turn up.

The problem is, without a means to identify the bacteria you so growing on your dipslides, such as chromogenic agar, when you get some growth, it's hard to know if you have uncovered a new bacterium, or whether it's just one you have found previously.

 

[Hip]

Maybe some labs would even offer straight up identifying the bacteria on the agar?

That might be possible if you can speak to the lab technicians, but a lot of labs do not like dealing with the general public, so they might not be accommodating.

I systematically contacted nearly 40 microbiology labs in the UK who offer bacterial identification services, and all of them but one said they do not deal with individuals, just organizations. And the one that said they could help me were charging £235 for MALDI-ToF bacterial identification. I think that cost might be per bacterium.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Yes same experience here too I've had to get a go referral. I contacted 9 ME doctors in the UK and most were happy to help but the consultation fee came first and it ranged from £125 to £250. Of course I'm sure there would have been further costs too not just this. Very annoying.