Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Guwop2]

I think it should work.

According to @Hipsman in this post, the mucus may contain the highest levels of bacteria, so adding a mucus sample to the agar may be an idea.

You can buy sterile cotton swabs on Amazon if you need a larger supply. On eBay UK I saw for less than £3 a packet of sterile cotton swabs (though not individually wrapped).

Hmm, maybe i could try just drooling onto it

This company do a postal urine culture test which identifies bacteria for £99.

Though if you add both your urine-derived bacteria and nasal-derived bacteria to the urine to be sent to the lab, when these bacteria are identified, you will not know where the identified bacteria came from.

I'd want a minimum of 2 tests then. Perhaps more cost effective would be to use the chromatic agar strips, and they have been tried and tested by yourself.

 

[bensmith]

Ty both

 

[Hip]

Perhaps more cost effective would be to use the chromatic agar strips, and they have been tried and tested by yourself.

You can try buying some "Brilliance UTI" chromogenic agar plates. Fisher Scientific sell them, and Fisher say you can buy these without opening an account, by checking out as a guest (only businesses can open accounts, but checking out as a guest is fine for individuals).

These plates have to be stored in the fridge, and have a shelf life of only 6 weeks. They have to be shipped cold, so they will arrive in an expanded polystyrene box containing freezer blocks.

Also available from Scientific Laboratory Supplies. They only sell to companies, but I made up a company name and department, and fortunately they did not check.

Some other chromogenic agar suppliers in this post.



Chromogenic agar typically provides a partial identification; it often will not tell you the exact species of bacteria, but narrows it down a bit.

For example, one of my urine bacteria was identified as "coliform bacteria" by chromogenic agar instructions, and coliforms are a group which includes Escherichia, Klebsiella, Enterobacter, Citrobacter and Hafnia. I did not know which I had, until I sent my bacteria to the Markov Clinic, and the clinic told me I have Klebsiella pneumonia. So that narrowed it down to the exact species of coliform bacteria.

Hmm, maybe i could try just drooling onto it

To obtain nasal mucus, you would want to blow your nose into a tissue, then take a sample of that mucus using a sterile cotton swab and place on your agar. Or if you have post-nasal drip, you might want to cough up some of the mucus which is dripping down the back of your throat, especially in the morning, when there may be more of it.

You can also use a sewing needle as a sterile transfer tool: if you hold the needle in a gas stove flame for a few seconds until it is red hot, that sterilizes the needle.

 

[Guwop2]

For example, one of my urine bacteria was identified as "coliform bacteria" by chromogenic agar instructions, and coliforms are a group which includes Escherichia, Klebsiella, Enterobacter, Citrobacter and Hafnia. I did not know which I had, until I sent my bacteria to the Markov Clinic, and the clinic told me I have Klebsiella pneumonia.

So another option would I guess to send the cultured bacteria (i suppose dip-slides would be enough?) straight to Dr Markov for analysis. I suppose some sort of sub-zero shipping would be neccessary too?

.. and thank you Hip for answering all these questions.

 

[Hip]

So another option would I guess to send the cultured bacteria (i suppose dip-slides would be enough?) straight to Dr Markov for analysis. I suppose some sort of sub-zero shipping would be neccessary too?

The clinic might be happy to do that, but at this point we do not know if it is possible for the clinic to ship the autovaccines back to the UK without any customs issues. This is something currently being looked at, and we should know the answer in the next week or two.

I had a remote email consultation with Dr Markov to begin with, and the idea was for me to ship my bacteria to the Markov Clinic.

The clinic asked me to get the bacteria identified in the UK before sending. But I could not find any bacterial testing services in the UK which would deal with individuals. So eventually the clinic said they would identify the bacteria themselves, if I shipped it to them. Although I had already performed partial identification using the chromogenic agar.

 

[Hip]

So another option would I guess to send the cultured bacteria (i suppose dip-slides would be enough?) straight to Dr Markov for analysis. I suppose some sort of sub-zero shipping would be neccessary too?

I would add, though, that even if the idea is to send your dipslides to the Markov Clinic for bacterial identification, it may still be a good idea to get hold of some chromogenic agar, and use this to partially identify the bacterial species growing on your dipslides.

Chromogenic agar can tell you if you have more than one species of bacteria in your urine, because each type of bacteria creates a different color on the agar. Without using chromogenic agar, it's not easy to work out what is growing on your dipslide.


I did lots of dipslide tests, about 8 dipslide tests over a period of a few weeks, to isolate my bacteria. A lot of the time, I would get the same bacterium appearing on the dipslide: Enterococcus (which turns blue-green on the chromogenic agar).

But on some dipslide urine tests, I would get different species of bacteria coming out (demonstrated by a different color on the chromogenic agar). These different species may just appear as one or two isolated spots on the dipslide agar, and you would not know that these spots were actually different species unless you transferred them to the chromogenic agar (using a sterile tool) to testing.

I think it would be a good idea to test lots of spots on your dipslide agar, especially spots which look slightly different to the other spots, as those could be a different species. Then if you have managed to isolate say two or three different species of bacteria on the chromogenic agar, you could send your dipslides as well as your chromogenic agar plates to the Markov Clinic, knowing that you have isolated several species of bacteria.

I believe the more species you can detect, and then target with autovaccines, the better the results of treatment. In my case, the various bacteria I isolated using chromogenic agar was described by Dr Igor Markov as "a good catch".

 

[GlassCannonLife]

I would add, though, that even if the idea is to send your dipslides to the Markov Clinic for bacterial identification, it may still be a good idea to get hold of some chromogenic agar, and use this to partially identify the bacterial species growing on your dipslides.

Chromogenic agar can tell you if you have more than one species of bacteria in your urine, because each type of bacteria creates a different color on the agar. Without using chromogenic agar, it's not easy to work out what is growing on your dipslide.


I did lots of dipslide tests, about 8 dipslide tests over a period of a few weeks, to isolate my bacteria. A lot of the time, I would get the same bacterium appearing on the dipslide: Enterococcus (which turns blue-green on the chromogenic agar).

But on some dipslide urine tests, I would get different species of bacteria coming out (demonstrated by a different color on the chromogenic agar). These different species may just appear as one or two isolated spots on the dipslide agar, and you would not know that these spots were actually different species unless you transferred them to the chromogenic agar (using a sterile tool) to testing.

I think it would be a good idea to test lots of spots on your dipslide agar, especially spots which look slightly different to the other spots, as those could be a different species. Then if you have managed to isolate say two or three different species of bacteria on the chromogenic agar, you could send your dipslides as well as your chromogenic agar plates to the Markov Clinic, knowing that you have isolated several species of bacteria.

I believe the more species you can detect, and then target with autovaccines, the better the results of treatment. In my case, the various bacteria I isolated using chromogenic agar was described by Dr Igor Markov as "a good catch".

That sounds good. Are you not concerned about potential contamination of the urine sample during / after collection? The amplification achieved by culture makes me think that any tiny contamination would show up while not necessarily being present in your urine.

 

[Hip]

Are you not concerned about potential contamination of the urine sample during / after collection?

The source of contamination in urine samples is from the area of skin just around the urethral opening. Bacteria on this skin can be washed into the stream of urine, and then may start growing on the dipslide agar. So it is advisable to wash the urethral opening area with soap and water before passing urine. After washing I also applied some iodine to kill any organisms on the skin, just to be doubly sure.

When transferring bacteria from the dipslide agar to the chromogenic agar, you need to use a sterile tool. You can buy what are known as inoculating loops to do this. You would need to sterilize your inoculating loop after each spot of bacteria transferred to the chromogenic agar.

Metal inoculating loops can be held in a gas flame for a few seconds until red hot to sterilize. Or you can buy single use disposable plastic inoculating loops. You could make your own inoculating loop out of a paperclip, if your sterilize in a flame before use.

The inoculating loop must not touch any surface apart from the agar, otherwise it can pick up contamination from the surface.

You should not touch the agar with your fingers either, as this can contaminate with bacteria.


I was actually using sterile hypodermic needles as a makeshift inoculating loop, and these are OK, but once I actually accidentally pricked my finger with the needle after picking up some bacteria, which could be dangerous, by introducing bacteria into the body (I took a course of antibiotics after this needlestick accident, just as a precaution). So now I am using paperclips.

 

[godlovesatrier]

I've had a urine test done by the NHS that checked yeast and bacteria staph e. Coli etc. Is that the same thing @Hip ? As the one you posted.

 

[Hip]

I've had a urine test done by the NHS that checked yeast and bacteria staph e. Coli etc. Is that the same thing @Hip ? As the one you posted.

The standard urine test has insufficient sensitivity for detecting dysbiosis. To detect kidney dysbiosis, you need the Markov high sensitivity urine test.

 

[lint7]

The standard urine test has insufficient sensitivity for detecting dysbiosis. To detect kidney dysbiosis, you need the Markov high sensitivity urine test.

But you detected bacteria with a dipslide you ordered on the internet. Why can't a standard lab do that?

 

[Hip]

But you detected bacteria with a dipslide you ordered on the internet. Why can't a standard lab do that?

Because it needs fresh warm urine, which Dr Markov finds increases the urine test sensitivity by 2.5 to 2.7 times. When you send a urine sample to the lab, it's cold by the time it arrives. All this info is in the Dr Markov summary post.

 

[Breagjam]

Has anyone here had low GFR (Glomerular Filtration Rate)? This could be an indication that there is an infection in the kidneys. I have recently received results showing mildly decreased kidney function and I have really foamy urine, so I need to investigate this.

Mine was tested last January and was low at 48 - interesting.
I’m just now reading Dr Markov‘s theory and am ordering some dipslides to do the testing. Also, Dallas is about 6 hours away from me so would be feasible to travel to the clinic that may do auto vaccines for this,

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hmm if that's the case then my NHS test was done 5 minutes or less after urination. It was done at an emergency clinic while I waited. I got negative for everything. Had a pretty bad uti at the time when pain on urination, burning, bladder ache, discomfort and pain.

 

[Hip]

Hmm if that's the case then my NHS test was done 5 minutes or less after urination. It was done at an emergency clinic while I waited. I got negative for everything. Had a pretty bad uti at the time when pain on urination, burning, bladder ache, discomfort and pain.

I don't have any knowledge of how emergency UTI tests are conducted in A&E, but a regular urine culture on agar I think takes something like 12 to 24 hours. You would normally culture the bacteria overnight, because they take time to grow on the agar.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hi Hip,

Yes they didn't do anything like that. It was some sort of analysis machine. It showed percentages or titer ranges for each microbe. Sadly don't know much more than that I haven't seen it mentioned in my records again

 

[BrightCandle]

I know the NHS tests for UTI and such never found anything but doing my dipslides using the 24 hour waiting method has. Its probably the test the NHS does, its not sensitive enough. Honestly I wouldn't put plain old medical incompetence past them even on tests as simple as a urine test. It has been such a common theme that the NHS misses stuff that its almost a joke at this point.

 

[Cipher]

It was some sort of analysis machine. It showed percentages or titer ranges for each microbe.

Are you sure it measured different bacteria? Could it have been a simple urine test strip? They often use machines to more easily read the results.

 

[Hipsman]

Update: 5 autovaccine shots done, 5 left to go. Still feel this improvement in nervous system (very relaxed instead of being constantly worried and alarmed).

I'm also just feeling generally well without ups and downs that were common before starting this autovaccine course. Social anxiety is significantly reduced too. I feel like subconsciously my brain realized that the battle is won already lol (this haven't happened with any other treatments I tried).

The only downside is that I became lazy! I think this is because during last few years I relied on feeling uneasy and nervous to push myself to get stuff done, but when these feeling are gone, I'm just left with no productivity habits in place, I had to abandon all productivity habits that involved pushing myself some time ago, because pushing myself only made things worse.

 

[bensmith]

Man i can so relate to what yoh are saying bro, congrats.