Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

If its part of ME they should detectable and OMF or other researchers should be able to find them.

Do you mean LPS in the blood?

Higher levels of LPS have been found in ME/CFS patients: see Dr Maureen Hanson's study.

Table 2 shows that median blood LPS in ME/CFS patients was 119.43 pg/ml, whereas healthy controls had 74.74 pg/ml.



According to the paper I quoted above:

in the absence of infection, endotoxin still crosses the mucosal membranes of gut, gums, nose or lungs, the main source being intestinal permeability

So there may be other sources of LPS other than the kidneys, with multiple sources contributing to blood LPS levels. The paper reckons that leaky gut is the main source of bloodstream LPS.

I was just thinking: why not make an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from a stool (fecal) sample. That might work against the bacteria that are producing LPS which might enter the bloodstream via a leaky gut.

But then it occurred to me that if you made an autovaccine from a stool sample, that sample would perhaps also include desirable friendly gut bacteria, and you would not want to get the immune system to fight against your friendly bacteria.

So I wonder if the advantage of making an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from the kidney is that you will not include any friendly bacteria in the vaccine?



Note that it is not just bacterial endotoxin (LPS) that Dr Markov theorizes enters the blood from a kidney infection, but also bacterial exotoxins.

Prof Gottfries's Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine treatment of ME/CFS suggests that Staphylococcus exotoxins may also be involved in the etiology of ME/CFS in some patients.

 

[Alvin2]

Do you mean LPS in the blood?

Higher levels of LPS have been found in ME/CFS patients: see Dr Maureen Hanson's study.

Table 2 shows that median blood LPS in ME/CFS patients was 119.43 pg/ml, whereas healthy controls had 74.74 pg/ml.

Interesting. I would be interested to know the implications. Has anyone checked if this is universal enough to use as an ME diagnostic test?

So there may be other sources of LPS other than the kidneys, with multiple sources contributing to blood LPS levels. The paper reckons that leaky gut is the main source of bloodstream LPS.

I was just thinking: why not make an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from a stool (fecal) sample. That might work against the bacteria that are producing LPS which might enter the bloodstream via a leaky gut.

But then it occurred to me that if you made an autovaccine from a stool sample, that sample would perhaps also include desirable friendly gut bacteria, and you would not want to get the immune system to fight against your friendly bacteria.

So I wonder if the advantage of making an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from the kidney is that you will not include any friendly bacteria in the vaccine?



Note that it is not just bacterial endotoxin (LPS) that Dr Markov theorizes enters the blood from a kidney infection, but also bacterial exotoxins.

Prof Gottfries's Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine treatment of ME/CFS suggests that Staphylococcus exotoxins may also be involved in the etiology of ME/CFS in some patients.

This would be the nuclear option that could cause lots of collateral harm. When a cancer patient is given radiation treatment its aimed at the tumour, not the whole body.
If your immune system starts attacking your gut your in big trouble.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Interesting. I would be interested to know the implications. Has anyone checked if this is universal enough to use as an ME diagnostic test?


This would be the nuclear option that could cause lots of collateral harm. When a cancer patient is given radiation treatment its aimed at the tumour, not the whole body.
If your immune system starts attacking your gut your in big trouble.

The study says that elevated LPS correlates with elevated sCD14. Mine is checked multiple times and normal. I don't have bacterial translocation either. Not the best diagnostic test.

 

[Alvin2]

The study says that elevated LPS correlates with elevated sCD14. Mine is checked multiple times and normal. I don't have bacterial translocation either. Not the best diagnostic test.

How does one test sCD14? Also what is bacterial translocation?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

How does one test sCD14? Also what is bacterial translocation?

In the blood.
Bacterial translocation means that your gut is leaky, letting bacteria into the bloodstream. You can measure this for example with elevated levels of zonulin

 

[Alvin2]

In the blood.
Bacterial translocation means that your gut is leaky, letting bacteria into the bloodstream. You can measure this for example with elevated levels of zonulin

Neither test appears to be offered by the blood test company in my province

 

[andyguitar]

Higher levels of LPS have been found in ME/CFS patients:

Okay then, if it's possible to measure the levels and treatment with an autovaccine can stop the source of them it would be fairly easy to test Dr Markov's findings. Just measure the levels before and after a cycle of treatment and if the levels reduce and symptoms improve the chances of autovaccine being useful increases. But it would'nt be absolute proof. Good enough to take things further though.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Okay then, if it's possible to measure the levels and treatment with an autovaccine can stop the source of them it would be fairly easy to test Dr Markov's findings. Just measure the levels before and after a cycle of treatment and if the levels reduce and symptoms improve the chances of autovaccine being useful increases. But it would'nt be absolute proof. Good enough to take things further though.

And who wants to take the risk of autovaccination?

 

[andyguitar]

And who wants to take the risk of autovaccination?

It could be done just by those who Dr Markov treats on a day to day basis. So they just have an additional test for LPS. Then those results could be used to try to get a formal clinical trial done.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It could be done just by those who Dr Markov treats on a day to day basis. So they just have an additional test for LPS. Then those results could be used to try to get a formal clinical trial done.

If you’re healthy enough to get that organised I’m convinced this would be a N=1 start

 

[andyguitar]

If you’re healthy enough to get that organised I’m convinced this would be a N=1 start

Not much orginisation to have a couple of blood samples taken.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Not much orginisation to have a couple of blood samples taken.

Yrs plus CCC and so on. Must be precise

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Yrs plus CCC and so on. Must be precise

I would play the guinea pig and test for LPS/LBP if I find a lab for LPS (not easy)

 

[Aidan Walsh]

To say it very politely: Do a study because no one will read your paper except us very desperate patients. We have heard about these stories and claims a hundred times. Your case examples are worthless. Without a double-blinded placebo-controlled study you are making only cash with your clinic but doesn't contribute to serious research. And that's exactly what we need. 1/6 very severe patients, young people among them, kill themselves out of desperation. And you offer me, a severely ill patient, to send my urine to your clinic, pay you for your diagnosis, which you think is under copyright protection ((as a lawyer I tell you a secret: illnesses are generic descriptions which can't be protected by copyright laws). Then I would have to charge you for the vaccines. You think an MP would help us with delivery which is, I am sorry, ridiculous. And then, after all these questions, you do not offer replicable data.

Why won't you do a clinical trial. Please tell me!

And the alarm bells ring when someone claims that he can cure many and totally different diseases with the same treatment because there would be the same cause.

Please don't raise false hopes to those who are absolutely in need of serious research done with serious studies.

Thank you!

Dr. Stratton found over 34+ illness associated with Cpn bacteria so it could be in countless illness with the CBIS

 

[Hip]

they are made from autostrains of own patient's bacteria, therefore they may be unlimited used for individual treatment and, important: for them is not necessary any double blind placebo clinical trial (by the way, such a trial is necessary for industrial/massive production of vaccines and their on market introduction; autovaccines may be used unlimited individually "from a patient - to this patient").

So you are saying that double blind placebo clinical trials are not necessary in order to use autovaccines on patients. You are saying it is not necessary to get approval from a regulatory authority (like the FDA) in order to use autovaccines, which are made from a patient's own bacteria.

This I understand.

However, in order to convince other researchers that your autovaccine treatment is effective for ME/CFS, some sort of clinical trail is still necessary.

 

[hapl808]

A double blinded placebo trial would be easy to do and very convincing, even a small one. Two steps would be required to convince pharma partners. The first step is the big one.

Since you seem to be able to diagnose with great accuracy, first take 10 moderate to severe CFS patients, 10 healthy controls, and 10 people with other disparate diseases (diabetes, renal failure, cystic fibrosis, etc). What is the sensitivity and specificity of your test for distinguishing CFS when administered blindly?

Treat 20 moderate to severe CFS patients. At the moderate to severe level, spontaneous improvement in a short period is unlikely. Perform all the same steps you would for treating, but 10 would get a placebo and 10 would get the autovaccine. Obviously the clinicians should also be blinded.

Like most compassionate trials, you could offer the placebo patients the autovaccine afterward once your efficacy was shown.

With the number of people experiencing CFS or similar disorders like Long Covid, recruiting a few patients doesn't seem that difficult. This is not enough for global drug approval where a trial would require hundreds or thousands, but it's certainly enough to make seismic waves in the chronic illness world.

 

[andyguitar]

Therefore we search urgently for collaboration for this item.

You need to contact a Pharmaceutical Company to find a collaborator.

A double blinded placebo trial would be easy to do and very convincing, even a small one. Two steps would be required to convince pharma partners.

But to have credibility a trial would have to be done by researchers who are not connected to Dr Markov or his clinic. This would be expensive.

 

[Hip]

A double blinded placebo trial would be easy to do and very convincing, even a small one. Two steps would be required to convince pharma partners. The first step is the big one.

I guess one difficulty with conducting a double-blind placebo-controlled trial on the autovaccine would be that patients with a longer duration of disease tend require up to 3 years autovaccine treatment.

Dr Igor Markov said in an earlier post that it requires 6 months to 3 years treatment, with a longer treatment required for patients who have had their illness longer.

We do not know if longer duration of ME/CFS illness equates to greater illness severity. This is a question I would like to ask Igor Markov.

Without getting funding to run such a long-term trial might incur a considerable expense.

 

[Hufsamor]

Seems odd to me that if a vaccine can stimulate the immune system to attack a bacteria why would it need to be given so many time over such a long time frame?

They do this with allergy vaccination, don’t they?
Somehow the same principle, I guess?
Several shots (or doses: pills or liquid) over 3-5 years?

 

[andyguitar]

They do this with allergy vaccination, don’t they?
Somehow the same principle, I guess?
Several shots (or doses: pills or liquid) over 3-5 years?

The "Allergy Vaccine" (also called immunotherapy) does take a couple of years but the principal is different. The objective is to train the immune system not to overreact to the allergen. Autovaccines stimulate the immune system to attack a pathogen. So allergy vaccine damps down immune system, autovaccine stimulates it.