Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[andyguitar]

And am I understanding it right that autovaccines produced from the bacteria present in the urine would therefore only target bacteria located in the kidneys, unless coincidentally they were also present elsewhere in the body like the gut?

For what it's worth I'd say that an autovaccine against a specific strain of bacteria should work against that bacteria wherever it is. I cant imagine the immune system could just select one area of the body. You make a good point @hb8847 how come some people get better using other treatments?. A possible answer is the cause of their me/cfs is not an infection on the kidney. Having seen reports on this website from those who say they got me/cfs after a head injury it would be a bit of a stretch to say their me/cfs is connected to infection.

 

[andyguitar]

Thus treating the nephrodysbacteriosis kidney infection alone with autovaccines may not work if you also have LPS entering the bloodstream from a leaky gut.

Probably not, but it might reduce the amount of LPS enough to get back to near normal. Not everyone with leaky gut gets me/cfs

 

[Hip]

Ah OK, so the endotoxins showing up in Markov's urine sample wouldn't be from gut bacteria because it's already filtered by the hepatic portal system?

I am not sure of Dr Markov is measuring LPS endotoxin in the urine. He takes warm urine samples in order to culture the bacteria that live in the kidneys.

Might this be why people with Leaky Gut and gut dysbiosis often have fatty liver problems?

Could be. I just found this paper which says lipopolysaccharide (LPS) plays an important role in the pathogenesis of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).

Is it also the case that Urine sample bacteria toxins can ONLY have originated from organs that do not bypass the liver?

The info that Martin posted above says the liver filters 95% to 99% of LPS in the blood running through the hepatic portal system. So you can still get LPS entering the bloodstream from the intestines, because it is not filtered 100%.

And does that then rule out everywhere but the kidneys, leading to the Markov hypothesis of CBIS?

It is mainly the digestive organs whose blood supply is filtered by the hepatic portal system (including pancreas and gallbladder). Spleen also. This filtering helps protect you from toxins if you have eaten something poisonous.

And am I understanding it right that autovaccines produced from the bacteria present in the urine would therefore only target bacteria located in the kidneys, unless coincidentally they were also present elsewhere in the body like the gut?

That is right.

I would like to know how often it is that you get a urinary tract infection from bacteria in the gut. This study suggests that gut bacteria can indeed jump into the urinary tract and cause infections.

Assuming Markov's study is true, and most CFS cases are in fact CBIS cases, and that his autovaccines almost exclusively target bacterial dysbiosis in the kidneys, would it not surprise you the amount of CFS patients who have gotten better from entirely separate means, say, by treatment for gut dysbiosis, or mould, or leaky gut, or viral treatments, etc? If most CFS are all actually CBIS surely most of these treatments should have minimal effect as they don't address the bacteria present in the liver?

As explained just above, the immune priming theory of ME/CFS if true would suggest ME/CFS is only caused when there are multiple factors present. So a viral infection alone may not cause ME/CFS; but if you catch a viral infection while already having a kidney infection, these two factors together may trigger ME/CFS, as a result of immune priming.

The idea that it requires two or more simultaneous factors to be present before ME/CFS is triggered was first proposed by Erik Johnson. He proposed that in the 1984 Lake Tahoe ME/CFS outbreak, it required the presence of mold (or similar biotoxins) and a virus to trigger ME/CFS. See this post.

 

[hb8847]

Thanks for explaining @Hip and for all the sources

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I am not sure of Dr Markov is measuring LPS endotoxin in the urine. He takes warm urine samples in order to culture the bacteria that live in the kidneys.





Could be. I just found this paper which says lipopolysaccharide (LPS) plays an important role in the pathogenesis of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD).





The info that Martin posted above says the liver filters 95% to 99% of LPS in the blood running through the hepatic portal system. So you can still get LPS entering the bloodstream from the intestines, because it is not filtered 100%.





It is mainly the digestive organs whose blood supply is filtered by the hepatic portal system (including pancreas and gallbladder). Spleen also. This filtering helps protect you from toxins if you have eaten something poisonous.





That is right.

I would like to know how often it is that you get a urinary tract infection from bacteria in the gut. This study suggests that gut bacteria can indeed jump into the urinary tract and cause infections.





As explained just above, the immune priming theory of ME/CFS if true would suggest ME/CFS is only caused when there are multiple factors present. So a viral infection alone may not cause ME/CFS; but if you catch a viral infection while already having a kidney infection, these two factors together may trigger ME/CFS, as a result of immune priming.

The idea that it requires two or more simultaneous factors to be present before ME/CFS is triggered was first proposed by Erik Johnson. He proposed that in the 1984 Lake Tahoe ME/CFS outbreak, it required the presence of mold (or similar biotoxins) and a virus to trigger ME/CFS. See this post.

That would also mean that we all need personalized medicine and it would always be a long run until you'll find out what's causing your ME.

I only wonder why: If we think of LPS having these effects on IDO: My case and the 90% success rates show, that ME is unequal CBIS. ME could be CBIS. But then there is more to it. Otherwise we are talking about two different diseases that occasionally come with the exact same clinical appearance.

I think that is unlikely because, for example, the same drugs (Abilify, Benzos) help me as the majority of ME patients - but after the connection established by @Hip , I then have no CBIS - that show my lab results. Or I have it without LPS entering the bloodstream. And then again the question: how can such an infection cause all of this?

 

[Alvin2]

That would also mean that we all need personalized medicine and it would always be a long run until you'll find out what's causing your ME.

Personalized medicine is a glorified MacGuffin, not to say it does not have any merit but its not the end all of medicine.
But it ironically fits with this "treatment".

 

[perrier]

According to the policy of our clinic, we diagnose for ME/CFS-CBIS and, if any, treat all patients upto, incl., 0 — VERY SEVERE: Bedridden constantly, except to go to bathroom (as per Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Severity and Level of Activity Scale).



Dear Forums-Members,

As we posted at June 13, 5:55 PM:

On June 28, 2021, expire the 30 months, allotted for the international patenting in other countries of Dr.-med.Igor Markov’s, 9 bacterial cultural vaccines patented in Ukraine, to be produced industrially at the appropriate pharmaceutical companies.

Most of them are for massive [large-scale] treatment of patients w/ ME/CFS-CBIS in their countries without preparing autovaccines (i.e. instead of autovaccines, prepared individually).


As we wrote to Aidan Walsh, at June 13, 5:55 PM:

We search urgently for collaboration for this international patenting. Till June 28-29, this thread instead of Dr.Oleg Markov as Communications will be observed&administered by co-author Dr.-med.Artem Markov w/ possible posts.

Still we’re waiting for response of Dr.Phair on our question and for urgent proposals for collaboration for international patenting, as already mentioned.

Thank you once more for your interest in our findings.

Can you please provide an email address at which you may be contacted. Thank you.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

According to the policy of our clinic, we diagnose for ME/CFS-CBIS and, if any, treat all patients upto, incl., 0 — VERY SEVERE: Bedridden constantly, except to go to bathroom (as per Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Severity and Level of Activity Scale).



Dear Forums-Members,

As we posted at June 13, 5:55 PM:

On June 28, 2021, expire the 30 months, allotted for the international patenting in other countries of Dr.-med.Igor Markov’s, 9 bacterial cultural vaccines patented in Ukraine, to be produced industrially at the appropriate pharmaceutical companies.

Most of them are for massive [large-scale] treatment of patients w/ ME/CFS-CBIS in their countries without preparing autovaccines (i.e. instead of autovaccines, prepared individually).


As we wrote to Aidan Walsh, at June 13, 5:55 PM:

We search urgently for collaboration for this international patenting. Till June 28-29, this thread instead of Dr.Oleg Markov as Communications will be observed&administered by co-author Dr.-med.Artem Markov w/ possible posts.

Still we’re waiting for response of Dr.Phair on our question and for urgent proposals for collaboration for international patenting, as already mentioned.

Thank you once more for your interest in our findings.

thank you all there. Which Dr. Phair do you mean & where is he located? thanks

 

[Sushi]

Which Dr. Phair do you mean & where is he located? thanks

Our member HTester -- the metabolic trap researcher. Robert Phair.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Our member HTester -- the metabolic trap researcher. Robert Phair.

ok thank-you, ok I realize who you mean now Open Med Metabolics, I thought you Guys meant UK Doctor thanks Sushi

 

[Hip]

Can you please provide an email address at which you may be contacted. Thank you.

Lots of contact details in this earlier post.

 

[perrier]

Because of Phoenix Rising rules about not promoting your own business, @ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS would not be allowed to post links to their clinic's website.

However, other members are free to do this, so I will post a few pages about this autovaccine ME/CFS treatment:

This is their page on the autovaccine treatment of ME/CFS: https://cbis.vitacell.com.ua/en

This is their page on autovaccines: https://vitacell.com.ua/page8443.html (You need to translate this one to English; you can use the Google Chrome browser to automatically translate).

Website testimonials page: https://vitacell.com.ua/page7933.html


This is the clinic Twitter account: https://twitter.com/OmBienchen

Facebook account: https://www.facebook.com/KlinikaMarkova/

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCADlBuA6qIki5rJWLCIdKOw (videos have English subtitles). Relevant videos:

• Chronic fatigue syndrome. Part 5
• Chronic bacterial intoxication syndrome. Part 6. Clinic
• Chronic bacterial intoxication syndrome. Part 7. Treatment

The full published work on the autovaccine ME/CFS treatment is here.

Hip you are the prince of princes, thanks. But I am a computer dunce. I just need an email address to the Markov team. I need to send something to them.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Hip you are the prince of princes, thanks. But I am a computer dunce. I just need an email address to the Markov team. I need to send something to them.

Maybe message them in Facebook Message, likely an email is on their site home pages Contact

 

[perrier]

Maybe message them in Facebook Message, likely an email is on their site home pages Contact

thanks I sent them an email; I finally found it. Thank you. When, oh Lordy Lord, will this monstrous illness recede.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

thanks I sent them an email; I finally found it. Thank you. When, oh Lordy Lord, will this monstrous illness recede.

$60 Million Dollar question, I wish I knew I think we all need Miracles

 

[perrier]

This topic has surely been discussed. But I raise it again in the context of this thread. There seems agreement that the vast majority of folks who succumb to this disease have had some kind viral event prior to this. OK. Is there agreement or not that the vast majority had antibiotic use before coming down with this. In our family member, there has been dreadful amount of antibiotic use in adolescence due to strep and then massive antibiotic IV use in a medical emergency, and then in the subsequent infections. Yes, one of the multitude was Cipro. What is the thinking on this antibiotic use issue? Thanks.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

This topic has surely been discussed. But I raise it again in the context of this thread. There seems agreement that the vast majority of folks who succumb to this disease have had some kind viral event prior to this. OK. Is there agreement or not that the vast majority had antibiotic use before coming down with this. In our family member, there has been dreadful amount of antibiotic use in adolescence due to strep and then massive antibiotic IV use in a medical emergency, and then in the subsequent infections. Yes, one of the multitude was Cipro. What is the thinking on this antibiotic use issue? Thanks.

You won't find any person who didn't have antibiotics... But: when I had my onset (mild) I haven't gotten any antibiotic in my entire life. I know I'm bothering some here with my criticism. So I won't say more about it.

 

[hb8847]

You won't find any person who didn't have antibiotics... But: when I had my onset (mild) I haven't gotten any antibiotic in my entire life. I know I'm bothering some here with my criticism. So I won't say more about it.

That's interesting. And everyone's experience is valid, it does no good closing our ears to cases that don't fit our chosen narrative. I suspect if fixing everyone's CFS was as simple as restoring one's healthy bacteria there wouldn't be a need for a forum such as this.

Out of interest did you have any other factors of note that could have impacted your microbiota? For example, were you breastfed as a child, were you delivered by Caesarean?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

That's interesting. And everyone's experience is valid, it does no good closing our ears to cases that don't fit our chosen narrative. I suspect if fixing everyone's CFS was as simple as restoring one's healthy bacteria there wouldn't be a need for a forum such as this.

Out of interest did you have any other factors of note that could have impacted your microbiota? For example, were you breastfed as a child, were you delivered by Caesarean?

I can't tell you. I think breastfed

 

[Hip]

Is there agreement or not that the vast majority had antibiotic use before coming down with this. In our family member, there has been dreadful amount of antibiotic use in adolescence due to strep and then massive antibiotic IV use in a medical emergency, and then in the subsequent infections.

There was one Norwegian study which found that both IBS and ME/CFS patients tend to have an history of repeated or long-lasting treatment with antibiotics as a child, often before school age. I fit in this category, as I had terrible chronic tonsillitis as a child, and I had round after round of antibiotics. Eventually I had my tonsils removed.

The Norwegian paper hypothesizes that extensive early childhood antibiotic use may cause Candida and bacteria to form biofilms in the small intestine. It's these colonies of bacteria and Candida hiding inside biofilms that the authors suggest set the stage for chronic disease like IBS or ME/CFS later in life.

Biofilm formation has been observed in vitro when bacteria are exposed to antibiotics.

However, one study in science is never enough, because issues like this are complex. So I don't think we can come to any conclusions as yet. Nevertheless, it is certainly an interesting line of investigation.


From the treatment perspective, if we had some highly effective biofilm-busters, that would be a good experiment. Every few years I check Google to see if any potent biofilm-busting drugs have been developed, but so far we do not have much in this department. There are few supplements which might help inhibit biofilms, but nothing potent.

The brown plaque some people have on their teeth is a biofilm, so when an effective biofilm buster arrives on the market, you may be able to clean the plaque off your teeth with it.