Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[hapl808]

But to have credibility a trial would have to be done by researchers who are not connected to Dr Markov or his clinic. This would be expensive.

I don't think that's entirely true. While that would be ideal, Pfizer ran the experiment that tested the Pfizer vaccine, Moderna did the experiment that tested the Moderna vaccine. Some of those trials had independent investigators involved, some did not.

The same with various IVD testing. The applications (for both regular approval and EUAs) are usually based on data submitted by the company applying for approval and reviewed by the FDA.

In this case, we wouldn't be looking for a Phased clinical trial - that is not practical. The goal would be enough verifiable information that a pharma company or funding source would be interested. Something beyond, "Trust me, 93% of our patients recover." The same thing is said by the DNRS community.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

forgot to answer yesterday regarding clinical trial for autovaccines:

already we’ve posted these explanations on Forums. Once more: they are made from autostrains of own patient's bacteria, therefore they may be unlimited used for individual treatment and, important: for them is not necessary any double blind placebo clinical trial (by the way, such a trial is necessary for industrial/massive production of vaccines and their on market introduction; autovaccines may be used unlimited individually "from a patient - to this patient").

I talk about a contribution to science and you again are talking about making cash.

One further question: You always mentioned that urine has to be warm. Then you offered me sending my urine to your clinic. How does that fit together?

 

[Avenger]

Very interesting, but it all sounds a little good to be true; the proof will come down to results. I would like to have some testimonials from ME/CFS patients we know. How much are they charging?

I have always seen the Gut as a prime source for what is called 'intoxication syndrome' due to organic acids derived from SIBO including D-Lactate due to the sheer quantity in overgrowth.

Many with ME/CFS have SIBO; it would be interesting to compare the abnormal bacteria in both Gut and Kidneys to see if they are related. If not you may still have fatigue from untreated SIBO?

Have the Kidney toxins been identified? I also get bad kidney pain during exacerbation's and kidney function is reduced at high levels of D-Lactate. It would be interesting to find out whether there is any direct effect upon the kidneys by the 'intoxication syndrome' causing reduced excretion of organic acids produced by SIBO.

I like the idea of an auto-vaccine that could possibly also be used for Gut bacteria? to target like phage.

My money is still on Gut bacteria. But I could be wrong.

I would like to be wrong especially if it Is as simple as growing the auto-vaccine from urine.

It would be good to get some data from other sources, there have been so many promises of cure.

 

[Hip]

You always mentioned that urine has to be warm. Then you offered me sending my urine to your clinic. How does that fit together?

I think Dr Markov mentioned earlier that with the help of a medical professional, a urine culture can be performed locally to the patient, and then the bacterial cultures grown from the urine locally can be shipped to the Ukraine, where these cultures can be turned into autovaccines.

See this post:

4) For patients with limited mobility, it is possible to work remotely with the delivery of samples of isolated bacterial cultures. To do this, you still need a virtual consultation with the preliminary provision of copies of extracts from the medical history and the tests performed.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I think Dr Markov mentioned earlier that with the help of a medical professional, a urine culture can be performed locally to the patient, and then the bacterial cultures grown from the urine locally can be shipped to the Ukraine, where these cultures can be turned into autovaccines.

See this post:

Ok then this was a misunderstanding. But finding a lab doc who is able to do this might be a bit difficult

 

[Hip]

But finding a lab doc who is able to do this might be a bit difficult

Yes, especially if you need to add warm urine directly to the agar plates (petri dishes) in which the bacteria are grown. If you are mobile, you might be able to make arrangements with a local lab such that you go to the lab and provide a warm urine sample at the lab.

If you are bedbound, then possibly with the aid of a friend, you could pass a urine sample at home into a plastic sample container, and the friend might be able to deliver the warm urine sample to the local lab within an hour or two, by using some means of keeping the sample warm while they carry it to the lab.

A vacuum flask (for keeping tea or coffee hot) should work: you would just fill the vacuum flask with water at 37°C body temperature, and place the plastic sample container in the vacuum flask. That would keep the urine warm for several hours, enough time for your friend to take it to the lab.

Finding a lab in your own area which would agree to accepting and culturing a warm urine sample on the 3 different types of agar plate required (specified by Dr Markov in earlier posts) might be more difficult, but it should be feasible, since the lab is not doing much other than adding the urine to the appropriate agar plates, and then placing them in an incubator for some time.

You would I guess need to provide the lab with a pre-paid shipping box to then post the agar plates to the Ukraine. I am not sure if the agar plates are time sensitive, and would require a fast 48 hour courier, or whether normal 5 to 10 day post times are acceptable.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Yes and when you are living in the province it's even more difficult.
Here is what a lab writes:
The collected urine should be brought to the laboratory within 2 hours. Otherwise it should be stored in a cool place until it is processed, as bacteria can multiply well at room temperature.

 

[perrier]

Why does this treatment not seem to be effective in patients who have been sick for a long time? Are you suggesting that these auto-vaccines are primarily effective when the illness is treated early on? What is your experience dealing with patients who have been bed bound off and on, or who are severe? Thank you.

PS. I am very interested in your reference to antibiotics, as our family member was subjected to a great number of antibiotics, in adolescence for recurring strep, and then during a medical crises in early adulthood, which required many IV antibiotics, and CFS/ME followed soon after.

 

[Hip]

Why does this treatment not seem to be effective in patients who have been sick for a long time?

A possible reason why autovaccine treatment may not work for ME/CFS patients who have been ill for many years just occurred to me:

Let's say a nephrodysbacteriosis kidney infection which leaks LPS into the blood helps precipitate the ME/CFS to begin with (in combination with the viral infection, I suspect). If you clear up this kidney infection quickly, maybe that helps fix the ME/CFS.

But in the longer term, maybe the ME/CFS patient will slowly develop colon dysbiosis and IBS, and as a result of the IBS may develop a leaky gut (39% of IBS-D patients were found to have increased intestinal permeability).

So now the ME/CFS patient may have two sources of LPS entering their bloodstream: one from the kidney infection, and another from a leaky gut.

Thus treating the nephrodysbacteriosis kidney infection alone with autovaccines may not work if you also have LPS entering the bloodstream from a leaky gut.

However, perhaps an autovaccine in combination with a leaky gut supplement protocol (a list of leaky gut sups in this post) might do the trick, and fix ME/CFS even in long-term patients.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Do you mean LPS in the blood?

Higher levels of LPS have been found in ME/CFS patients: see Dr Maureen Hanson's study.

Table 2 shows that median blood LPS in ME/CFS patients was 119.43 pg/ml, whereas healthy controls had 74.74 pg/ml.



According to the paper I quoted above:


So there may be other sources of LPS other than the kidneys, with multiple sources contributing to blood LPS levels. The paper reckons that leaky gut is the main source of bloodstream LPS.

I was just thinking: why not make an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from a stool (fecal) sample. That might work against the bacteria that are producing LPS which might enter the bloodstream via a leaky gut.

But then it occurred to me that if you made an autovaccine from a stool sample, that sample would perhaps also include desirable friendly gut bacteria, and you would not want to get the immune system to fight against your friendly bacteria.

So I wonder if the advantage of making an autovaccine from bacteria isolated from the kidney is that you will not include any friendly bacteria in the vaccine?



Note that it is not just bacterial endotoxin (LPS) that Dr Markov theorizes enters the blood from a kidney infection, but also bacterial exotoxins.

Prof Gottfries's Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine treatment of ME/CFS suggests that Staphylococcus exotoxins may also be involved in the etiology of ME/CFS in some patients.

I asked myself why I could not find a lab that measures LPS. Then I found this;
“ Endotoxins (synonym: Lipopolysaccharide LPS) are components of the cell wall of gram-negative bacteria. It is true that when the intestinal permeability is impaired, endotoxins originating from the intestinal bacteria are increasingly absorbed through the intestinal wall. However, as is well known, the intestine is drained through the veins of the portal vein system. The portal blood initially passes through the liver, where, depending on the liver function, between 95 and 99% of the endotoxin is eliminated during the first passage (“first pass effect”). Until blood is drawn from the arm vein, the blood still passes through the right ventricle, the lungs, the left ventricle and then the entire arterial capillary bed of the body periphery. Therefore, the peripheral venous endotoxin level does not allow any conclusions to be drawn about the translocation in the intestine. In order to actually draw conclusions about the endotoxin translocated in the intestine, one would have to take the blood from the portal vein, which is not possible. The blood sample from the arm vein literally comes too late (see illustration). The determination of LPS antibodies is also unsuitable for determining systemic endotoxin exposure. The formation of antibodies against the endotoxin molecules is variable and is influenced more by individual antibody formation and degradation than by the amount of absorbed or circulating endotoxin.”

So you'd have to measure LBP and sCD14. Interesting: how did Hanson do it?

 

[Hip]

I asked myself why I could not find a lab that measures LPS. Then I found this;

Interesting. So the first-pass metabolism removes 95% to 99% of any LPS which might cross the intestinal lining and enter the bloodstream.

I guess that further supports Dr Markov's idea that the kidney can be a larger source for LPS entering the blood circulation than the intestines.

This paper says that LPS from the first-pass metabolism is finally excreted through bile.


I believe measuring LBP is the standard way of measuring LPS blood levels.

In the Hanson study, they measured LPS, LBP and sCD14.

 

[Hip]

Should be reiterated that bacteria can make other toxins in addition to LPS. Exotoxins as they are called. For example Staphylococcus makes the exotoxin called alpha toxin.

So if you measure your blood LPS levels and find they are normal, this does not rule out the possibility that bacteria in your kidney or gut may be making other toxins that can get into the bloodstream.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Interesting. So the first-pass metabolism removes 95% to 99% of any LPS which might cross the intestinal lining and enter the bloodstream.

I guess that further supports Dr Markov's idea that the kidney can be a larger source for LPS entering the blood circulation than the intestines.

This paper says that LPS from the first-pass metabolism is finally excreted through bile.


I believe measuring LBP is the standard way of measuring LPS blood levels.

In the Hanson study, they measured LPS, LBP and sCD14.

Lab4More:
“ Lipopolysaccharides (LPS) are an important component of the outer membrane of gram-negative bacteria, which are complexed in the blood by LPS-binding protein (LBP) and transferred to the co-receptor CD14, which is expressed by monocytes and granulocytes becomes. The binding of the LPS / LBP / CD14 / MD-2 complex to TLR4 receptors stimulates a systemic inflammation cascade and leads to the release of further immunomodulators (IL6, TNFα, IL1).”

I don't have elevated levels for IL6 IL1 TNFa
LBP either

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

In @pattismith new post you can see that she doesn't have elevated TNFa either

 

[hb8847]

A possible reason why autovaccine treatment may not work for ME/CFS patients who have been ill for many years just occurred to me:

Let's say a nephrodysbacteriosis kidney infection which leaks LPS into the blood helps precipitate the ME/CFS to begin with (in combination with the viral infection, I suspect). If you clear up this kidney infection quickly, maybe that helps fix the ME/CFS.

But in the longer term, maybe the ME/CFS patient will slowly develop colon dysbiosis and IBS, and as a result of the IBS may develop a leaky gut (39% of IBS-D patients were found to have increased intestinal permeability).

So now the ME/CFS patient may have two sources of LPS entering their bloodstream: one from the kidney infection, and another from a leaky gut.

Thus treating the nephrodysbacteriosis kidney infection alone with autovaccines may not work if you also have LPS entering the bloodstream from a leaky gut.

However, perhaps an autovaccine in combination with a leaky gut supplement protocol (a list of leaky gut sups in this post) might do the trick, and fix ME/CFS even in long-term patients.

Would an autovaccine not also work on gut bacteria? Surely if it trained the body's immune system to recognise and kill bad bacteria it would do that everywhere no? Or is the gut bacteria protected by some other mechanism?

This whole autovaccine theory would make a lot more sense to me if it were acting everywhere in the body, particularly given how many CFS patients improve from gut related treatments alone (like your leaky gut protocol you've linked). If the Markov idea is that 90%+ CFS patients ALL have a kidney infection specifically (CBIS), well I have a harder time believing that.

I'm more inclined to feel the high success rates, if they are in fact as high as the author states, are due to the autovaccines acting widely on bacteria within the body. Obviously I'm no medical expert though.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Would an autovaccine not also work on gut bacteria? Surely if it trained the body's immune system to recognise and kill bad bacteria it would do that everywhere no? Or is the gut bacteria protected by some other mechanism?

This whole autovaccine theory would make a lot more sense to me if it were acting everywhere in the body, particularly given how many CFS patients improve from gut related treatments alone (like your leaky gut protocol you've linked). If the Markov idea is that 90%+ CFS patients ALL have a kidney infection specifically (CBIS), well I have a harder time believing that.

I'm more inclined to feel the high success rates, if they are in fact as high as the author states, are due to the autovaccines acting widely on bacteria within the body. Obviously I'm no medical expert though.

If I had those bacteria in the bloodstream you'd see it in my post above. So the link to the metabolic trap that @Hip has elaborated is not possible. And then you have to ask yourself: how does a kidney infection produce all these symptoms.

And yes: your immune system would attack the bucks everywhere in your body. Depending on the strain that can lead to unwanted effects on the gut.

 

[Hip]

Would an autovaccine not also work on gut bacteria? Surely if it trained the body's immune system to recognise and kill bad bacteria it would do that everywhere no? Or is the gut bacteria protected by some other mechanism?

Yes, if you had a kidney infection and an autovaccine was made using this, then if you happened to have that same infection elsewhere in the body, like in the gut or sinuses, then the autovaccine would work for those infections too. We talked about this earlier in the thread.

But Dr Markov believes that the kidneys have far greater ability for leaking bacterial toxins into the bloodstream than the intestines, due to the fact that 2000 liters of blood pass through the kidneys daily. See this earlier post.

And as Martin pointed out above, blood passing through the intestines is filtered of LPS via the first-pass metabolism (also called the hepatic portal system).

If I had those bacteria in the bloodstream you'd see it in my post above. So the link to the metabolic trap that @Hip has elaborated is not possible.

Not possible in your particular case perhaps, if your LPS is normal; but possible in other ME/CFS patients who may have elevated LPS; and the Hanson study indicated that high LPS is common in ME/CFS patients.

And then you have to ask yourself: how does a kidney infection produce all these symptoms.

Did you see my earlier post on the immune priming theory of ME/CFS? LPS can dramatically sensitize the parts of the immune system (like the microglia in the brain), such that when the immune system encounters an infection like a viral infection, it responds too strongly.

The immune priming theory of ME/CFS was independently proposed by Dr Jarred Younger of Stanford, and Prof Hugh Perry of Southampton, UK.

 

[BrightCandle]

Given the Kidneys are filtering the blood there is also a chance any infection gradually working its way around the body is also going to be getting into the Kidneys, they may be a fantastic place to look for everything that is infecting a person.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I meant: impossible in my case. Not impossible for everyone.

 

[hb8847]

Yes, if you had a kidney infection and an autovaccine was made using this, then if you happened to have that same infection elsewhere in the body, like in the gut or sinuses, then the autovaccine would work for those infections too. We talked about this earlier in the thread.

But Dr Markov believes that the kidneys have far greater ability for leaking bacterial toxins into the bloodstream than the intestines, due to the fact that 2000 liters of blood pass through the kidneys daily. See this earlier post.

And as Martin pointed out above, blood passing through the intestines is filtered of LPS via the first-pass metabolism (also called the hepatic portal system).





Not possible in your particular case perhaps, if your LPS is normal; but possible in other ME/CFS patients who may have elevated LPS; and the Hanson study indicated that high LPS is common in ME/CFS patients.





Did you see my earlier post on the immune priming theory of ME/CFS? LPS can dramatically sensitize the parts of the immune system (like the microglia in the brain), such that when the immune system encounters an infection like a viral infection, it responds too strongly.

The immune priming theory of ME/CFS was independently proposed by Dr Jarred Younger of Stanford, and Prof Hugh Perry of Southampton, UK.

Ah OK, so the endotoxins showing up in Markov's urine sample wouldn't be from gut bacteria because it's already filtered by the hepatic portal system? (Might this be why people with Leaky Gut and gut dysbiosis often have fatty liver problems?)

Is it also the case that Urine sample bacteria toxins can ONLY have originated from organs that do not bypass the liver? And does that then rule out everywhere but the kidneys, leading to the Markov hypothesis of CBIS?

And am I understanding it right that autovaccines produced from the bacteria present in the urine would therefore only target bacteria located in the kidneys, unless coincidentally they were also present elsewhere in the body like the gut?

Assuming Markov's study is true, and most CFS cases are in fact CBIS cases, and that his autovaccines almost exclusively target bacterial dysbiosis in the kidneys, would it not surprise you the amount of CFS patients who have gotten better from entirely separate means, say, by treatment for gut dysbiosis, or mould, or leaky gut, or viral treatments, etc? If most CFS are all actually CBIS surely most of these treatments should have minimal effect as they don't address the bacteria present in the liver?

I guess perhaps these other treatments could do something positive for the immune system and allow the body to deal with CBIS on its own... to me this seems a bit tenuous though