Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

I came across a very interesting study that may explain how mucosal viral infection could result in bacterial dysbiosis involving Enterococcus faecalis and Escherichia coli (the two most common bacteria Dr Markov finds in ME/CFS).

The study found when there is prolonged inflammation on the mucous membranes, this leads to overproduction of nitric oxide (NO).

The presence of high NO has a deleterious effect on the microbiome, depleting the beneficial butyrate-producing species, and promoting deleterious species like Enterococcus faecalis, Escherichia coli and Proteus mirabilis which are able to withstand high NO.

So elevated NO shifts the microbiome to undesirable bacterial species which can survive in high NO environments.

Now if the mucous membranes of ME/CFS patients are chronically infected with with viruses such as enterovirus, this may trigger chronic inflammation and NO production. So this could explain how viruses may trigger bacterial dysbiosis.



Possibly it may be feasible to reverse dysbiosis by inhibiting NO production on the mucous membranes. The NO produced by the immune system during inflammation is created by the enzyme inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS). So to reduce mucosal NO levels, an iNOS inhibitor might be effective.

Apparently aminoguanidine is a selective iNOS inhibitor, and this is available as a supplement.



On the other hand, this study found that in older mice, leaky gut was linked to low NO levels, the low NO levels caused by elevated arginase, an inhibitor of NO production. By giving the old mice an arginase inhibitor, they found this improves leaky gut.

 

[Garz]

@Hip

i think it may not be restricted to viruses - but more a case that any cause of prolonged inflammation could result in a dysbiosis type outcome. via the NO mechanism or via other inflammation driven pathways.

some bacteria for instance are intra cellular (mycoplasma, bartonella, chlamydia - for example - and are known to infect the cells that line the gut ) and the bodies response to intra cellular bacterial infections - in terms of inflammation - is v similar to that caused by viruses.

bartonella in particular causes inflammation in the gut lining from stomach through to colon - including gastritis and colitis

other organisms - even protozoan like giardia or things like Cryptosporidium can also be chronic and cause ongoing gut inflammation

Mitochondrial dysfunction is also often quoted in relation to CFS/ME - and i have also seen papers describing mitochondrial dysfunction in the cells in the gut lining causing reduced oxygen uptake by the human cells and leaving increased levels of oxygen in the get membrane that also favoured pathogenic micro-aerobic strains.

not to contradict anything that you have said - just to widen the scope a little to include other drivers of inflammation

 

[Hip]

i think it may not be restricted to viruses

Sure, it can be other pathogens.

But ME/CFS is usually triggered by a viral infection. So if bacterial dysbiosis and the toxins these bacteria release are the main drivers of ME/CFS, you would need to explain how a virus can cause that dysbiosis.

In the case of rapid onset ME/CFS, one minute you are perfectly healthy, then you catch a virus, and within a few days you are plunged into full-blown ME/CFS. With gradual onset ME/CFS, the same viral infection takes some months or longer to create full-blown ME/CFS, but it's still a virus which is the trigger.

So this viral trigger that needs to be factored into the causal equation. Dr Markov does not think viruses are involved in ME/CFS, because before he developed his autovaccine treatment, he tried to treat ME/CFS with Valcyte for 5 years, but got nowhere.

Nevertheless, you cannot escape the fact that viruses trigger ME/CFS. So if like Dr Markov you postulate a bacterial dysbiosis aetiology, there needs to be an explanation for how viruses cause this dysbiosis.

So my above post was an attempt at providing an explanation.


This is not just a theoretical concern; there may also be treatment implications: if we can figure out the mechanism by which a chronic viral infection gives rise to a dysbiosis, then it may be possible to intervene, and thwart that mechanism by means of some treatment.

 

[Vais]

I want to share my experience of treatment with Dr. Markov.

I have been suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome for about 20 years. During this period, at different times, I was disturbed by a wide variety of symptoms and manifestations of the disease: direct fatigue, weakness, frequent headaches, depression, sleep disturbances, frequent pain in the joints, as well as in muscles (fibromyalgia), shortness of breath, disruption of the normal functioning of the intestines, liver problems. In general, I often had the feeling that my body seemed to be "poisoned by something." On the background of taking antibiotics, the condition improved briefly, but after a short period of a couple of weeks, my poor health always completely returned.

During the period of illness, I received treatment from a variety of doctors: a neurologist, gastroenterologist, psychiatrist, ENT, rheumatologist, and many others.

When there was almost no hope for a successful treatment of the disease, I got an appointment with Dr. Markov. After conducting a wide variety of tests, bacteria were found in my kidneys. The doctor said that it is possible to treat my disease (CFS) with an autovaccine, which is made from strains of bacteria found in me. Those bacteria were (1) Enterococcus faecalis and (2) Staphylococcus haemolyticus. We started treatment. After one course of treatment with the autovaccination mentioned, I found to my great surprise that I felt much better than before the treatment. Particularly pleased with the significant reduction in headaches, weakness, and muscle pain. If we consider the improvement in my condition as a percentage, then I would say that my condition has improved by 50% since the start of treatment. It is also very indicative that the improvement effect is persistent and there is no return to an aggravated state, as was the case with antibiotics.

Considering the good result of the method of treatment, I am currently continuing treatment with Dr. Markov. I hope that my experience will be useful to someone.

 

[Hip]

I would say that my condition has improved by 50% since the start of treatment.

Thank you very much for your report, @Vais. Very interesting.

Can I ask, how long have you been doing Dr Markov's autovaccine treatment, and before you treatment started, where where you on the ME/CFS scale of severe, moderate, mild, remission? See the link for a description of the levels of the scale.

And where are you now on the scale, after doing the Markov protocol for some time?

In your introductory post, you say you have mild ME/CFS.



Or if you like, can you say where you were on the Phoenix Rising ME/CFS scale before and after Dr Markov's treatment:

Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Scale

0 — VERY SEVERE: Bedridden constantly, except to go to bathroom.

1 — SEVERE: Bedridden most of day, very rarely leave house.
2 — SEVERE: Leave house once a week, concentrate 1 hour a day.

3 — MODERATE: Leave house several times per week, 2 hours work/activity a day.
4 — MODERATE: 3 to 4 hours work/activity a day.
5 — MODERATE: 4 to 5 hours work/activity a day.

6 — MILD: 6 to 7 hours activity a day, able to do a part-time job.
7 — MILD: Able to do a full-time job but with difficulty.
8 — MILD: Near-normal life activity level, but still symptomatic.

9 — RECOVERY: Normal life activity level, mild symptoms.
10 — RECOVERY: Fully recovered, or in full remission.

 

[Vais]

Hi @Hip,

To achieve the reported results, I have been doing Dr Markov’s treatment for about 6 months. The treatment included:

1. Autovaccine treatment (about 1 month long) against the found Enterococcus faecalis

2. Several courses of treatment (2-3 weeks each) by using a general vaccine against Staphylococcus family of bacteria – to treat the found Staphylococcus haemolyticus

3. There were pauses (usually several weeks) between the periods of vaccination

Considering the ME/CFS scale, before I started the treatment, I had mild severity of the decease: although working full-time, but really struggled to do so and stopped all leisure and social pursuits. Moreover, I can say that I had some traits of the moderate severity: I did not leave the house much and had to perform domestic chores slowly with breaks and rests.

After 6 months of treatment, status of my decease is as follows. The overall health state has significantly improved. It can be expressed by using the Karnofsky Scale: 90 – Able to work; able to carry on normal activity; minor symptoms.

If we use Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Scale, then I can say that before the treatment, it was rather between 6 and 7. And now, after the 6 month of treatment, it is rather 9.

Currently, I continue the treatment of my CFS at Dr Markov’s clinic: I am being treated by an autovaccine of the Staphylococcus haemolyticus bacteria which was found in my kidneys.

 

[Hip]

If we use Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Scale, then I can say that before the treatment, it was rather between 6 and 7. And now, after the 6 month of treatment, it is rather 9.

Very interesting, Vais, thank you. I hope you continue to improve with further treatment, and reach a full state of recovery from your ME/CFS.

 

[Tsukareta]

Been following this thread for a while and it reminds me a lot of the theory behind the idea of CIRS, where low levels of toxins can produce a constantly activated innate immune system, which can be difficult to solve and partly involves colonization of the body by bacteria or mold in many cases. It makes you wonder what would happen if Dr Markov and Dr Shoemaker sat down in the same room together ?

 

[Hip]

Been following this thread for a while and it reminds me a lot of the theory behind the idea of CIRS, where low levels of toxins can produce a constantly activated innate immune system, which can be difficult to solve and partly involves colonization of the body by bacteria or mold in many cases. It makes you wonder what would happen if Dr Markov and Dr Shoemaker sat down in the same room together ?

Yes, there are some conceptual overlaps between mould illness and Dr Markov's theory.

For one thing, in Dr Brewer's theory of ME/CFS, mould lives in the nasal cavities, and constantly secretes mycotoxins into the bloodstream. And in Dr Shoemaker's CIRS mould illness, Staphylococcus bacteria (in the form of MARCoNS) can live in the nasal cavity.

In Dr Markov's theory, bacteria like Staphylococcus, Enterococcus, E.coli, Klebsiella, etc can either live in the nasal cavities (the nasopharynx to be precise) and/or the kidneys, and secrete bacterial toxins into the blood.

Both Shoemaker and Brewer use antimicrobial nasal sprays to target these nasal infections. Whereas Markov uses autovaccines to target these infections.



More recently, there has been something of a revolution in Dr Shoemaker's CIRS illness theory: he now believes that Actinobacteria are implicated in CIRS. Actinobacteria grow in the same damp places as mould, and along with mould, may lead to CIRS.

So Actinobacteria are a second bacterium involved in CIRS, and this brings CIRS and Dr Markov's theories closer.



I wrote to both Dr Shoemaker and Dr Brewer about 18 months ago, to inform them of the Markov theory (but unfortunately did not get any replies). But as you say, if these guys got in contact, there may be room for a lot of cross-fertilisation of ideas.

 

[Garz]

I want to share my experience of treatment with Dr. Markov.

@Vais - welcome - and thank you for sharing your experiences with the Markov Autovaccine therapy.

There is a small group of people from this forum currently undergoing the Markov vaccines treatment and tracking the results on a combined progress tracking chart as a means of sharing their progress over time.

see this post for more info on how that looks
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...-me-cfs-general-discussion.84566/post-2428530
its designed to be very low effort for the participants - just 2 numbers to enter per month
and i am supporting from a administrative / technical perspective - so no previous use of charts is needed.

We also have a private discussion thread for those taking part

Would you like me to create a line in the chart for you - and invite you to the discussion with the others who are undergoing the Markov Autovaccine treatment?

no pressure - only if its something you would like.

 

[Atlas]

Small update from me,

I finished the last injection of current 5month cycle on Friday.

No level-changes but I have been experiencing what seems to be some subtle changes.

One of which is the last few days my stomach feels like it is burning inside, it's not painful, more like a heat pack is in there. I normally get chest or stomach pain when I overdo it cognitively but it's not that since I have been resting.

Secondly, since the previous Staph injection course my nose seems to be noticably clearer. This was confirmed when my Mum brought me my woolen blanket from last year. It didn't smell like anything last year to me, but now it smells strongly like a sheep shed. But she says the same smell was there last time, she just didn't say anything because it was obvious.

So my smell seems to have greatly improved even though I was completely unaware I had even lost any smell sensitivity.


Another interesting thing was that all of my previous injections of the autostrains formed a large and very obvious red swelling, but the very last injection I took did not form anything except an invisible little bit of bulging and a bruise, even though it was the largest dose. I thought this suggested that my immune system is learning to respond to the vaccine and clear it much faster.

 

[honkerbay]

Just finished reading a good chunk of this. @Garz .. your posts about bartonella. Your thoughts are that the blood tests given for this are not adequate and can easily miss an infection? I have been tested (and subsequently ruled out) This test: https://testdirectory.questdiagnost...a-antibody-igg-with-reflex-to-titer?cc=MASTER . Assume this is the type of blood test you are referring to that can be easily incorrect?

 

[Garz]

yep. serology ( tests looking for expected antibodies ) is found to be flawed for chronic bartonella infections

one of the world leading researchers in bartonella - perhaps the number one - is a guy called Prof Ed Breitschwerdt at North Carolina State University - and his team there. He is a mainstream published researcher in bartonella and author of over 500 peer reviewed published scientific papers over the course of 40 years. ( so not some internet woowoo alternative health guru )

he finds most serologic tests for bartonella are v poor - and curiously - patients that are positive via PCR are almost always negative via serology - and those that are positive by serology are almost always negative by PCR of blood. so that tells us something unexpected is happening with the host immune response effecting testing.

from memory they point to general sensitivity rates well below 50% ( the tests misses 50% of truly infected persons )

it depends which antigens the antibody test has decided to use versus the genotype of the bartonella species involved and things like the host immune status.

sensitivity ( detecting the organism when it really is there ) is the main issue with most of these tests -
the main issue with bartonella testing is that it is not present in the circulating host blood in detectable quantities , most of the time -

the best test out there at present is a Culture +DD ePCR test - by Galaxy diagnostics -
here they culture the host blood in a medium derived from insect lymph fluid to increase its numbers to detectable levels - then run that through and enhanced PCR process to detect bacterial DNA
the makers published a very fair peer reviewed validation report of this method which demonstrated a 49% sensitivity - which is the best we have so far

you can also use simple Giemsa stained thin blood smear ( WHO approved technique for blood born infections like malaria, toxoplasma etc etc ) - but the issue is the same - bartonella does not appear uniformly distributed in all blood samples - but in infrequent localised clumps of infected cells - so you need to look at a large number of slides over many hours to find it - so its very time consuming -
this manifestation is well documented in newer papers and presentations by NIH trained mainstream doctor (Dr Mozayeni ) who treat chronic Bartonellosis in the USA
here

- ( see slide at 45:30)

and you can read about how i was able to do that for myself here
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4268122&p=4this discussion is quite long - as its a bit of a voyage into training myself in microscopy - but the compelling images of bartonella start around page 4

as another data point - different country, different mainstream medical system, the UK NHS (generally considered an evidence based and very conservative organisation) recently withdrew its serologic tests for bartonella.

lastly - this phenomenon is not isolated to bartonella infections - most, if not all chronic bacterial infections have evolved over millennia to survive long term in their host species.
They need to do that to survive long enough to be passed on to another host - or they will die out - so especially infections that are transmitted by relatively rare events like bite from an infected insect - tend to have to survive long term in their host to avoid becoming extinct.
they cannot do that if they kill the host outright - or if they elicit a very strong immune response.
There is now good evidence that many of these species, if not all, have evolved different ways to evade the immune system - either with physical barriers they excrete around themselves (or stimulate the host to make for them) or via manipulating the host immune system in some way to prevent it attacking them and favour their long term survival. The lack of expected antibodies in infected people is a likely by product of these measures.

sorry for the long winded response - but i am aware that the population here is generally not well educated on the intricacies of chronic bacterial infection, tend to see blood tests as reliable - and are therefore sceptical of the possibility of it being a cause of their illness - or even of its existence as a relatively common issue in a fatigued population. This is understandable as its still the prevailing view in the medical world.
Whereas i suspect that, based on everything i have learned and experienced in my own journey over the last 8 years - is its more common than people expect, especially in fatigued patient populations with mysterious illnesses, and that these illnesses are being overlooked due to over reliance on serologic testing. so, many people could be helped by identifying such infections. i therefore try to at least raise awareness and provide evidenced based information.

 

[Artemii88]

hi, who knows if the Markov clinic is working, I want to order a vaccine from them in the USA, but no one answers the email

 

[Hip]

hi, who knows if the Markov clinic is working, I want to order a vaccine from them in the USA, but no one answers the email

Which email are you using?

I don't think you can just order a vaccine, I believe you first have to become a patient of Dr Markov, have a consultation with him, and if he diagnoses CBIS, you can later send your dipslides to the Markov Clinic, and Dr Markov may then prescribe one or more vaccines.

Do you satisfy the IOM diagnostic criteria for ME/CFS, or the more precise Canadian consensus criteria (pdf here)?

 

[Artemii88]

Which email are you using?

I don't think you can just order a vaccine, I believe you first have to become a patient of Dr Markov, have a consultation with him, and if he diagnoses CBIS, you can later send your dipslides to the Markov Clinic, and Dr Markov may then prescribe one or more vaccines.

Do you satisfy the IOM diagnostic criteria for ME/CFS, or the more precise Canadian consensus criteria (pdf here)?

I wrote on admin@vitacell.com.ua and on telegram contact And yes, I want to become a patient and get a consultation, I already have dipslides but have not done the test yet:

 

[Atlas]

Yesterday I woke up and I had a PEM poison-like gross feeling, but then I looked out the window and it seemed like reality was more real again, like that one day when I woke from sleep feeling abnormally refreshed after the Staph injections, but this time looking out the window it was REALLY real, almost like I could see in 3d again for the first time in I don't know how long.

After I had a sitting shower and washed my hair which normally crashes me a bit the sense of reality was dulled again, like a low grade constant fog had arrived again. And next day, today, woke a bit crashed, gross and don't want to move, and back to "normal" when I looked out the window, everything relatively dull compared to yesterday morning.

 

[MartinK]

Hi all, I finished first vaccination from dr. Markov - it was a Staph. vaccine, 7 doses.
After 3rd dose I had a small reaction and after 4th dose I had huge immune reaction for few days. Lot of muscle fatigue and pain, but the following days were good - something was definitely happening!
Have you also had reactions to this vaccine? @Hip @Atlas @bensmith and others?

I'm taking a break now, there will be more autovaccines in a few weeks.

I'm also thinking of trying the BCG vaccine sometime in between vaccines - but dr. Markov didn't recommend it, but I might have a good source... I'm considering it, but I don't want to disrupt this treatment in any way. Hope it doesn't do bad things tocombine this vacciness...I just want to get better

 

[Hufsamor]

If dr markov are against it, I personally would have waited at least until you’re done with his vaccination program.
More is not always better. Your body needs time.
The BCG vaccine will most likely wait patiently for you until you’re ready

 

[Atlas]

@MartinK it sounds like your reactions to the Staph were bigger than mine. My reactions to the Staph vaccines were barely anything, maybe a little localized soreness and maybe some increased muscle fatigue.

But during the following vaccines I had large red swelling localized reactions, and definitely increased general malaise and muscle pain at some points. One injection, which I wrote about previously, gave me a fever for a day and no appetite, but I'm pretty sure that one we might have accidentally injected intramuscularly, which would have been absorbed faster and potentially cause the more extreme reaction early on.

------

I agree with Hufsamor about the BCG. Obv it's up to you, but I know that I received BCG as a child and it gave me a huge and life-threatening reaction. So personally I would def not do it without close supervision of a doctor. In fact, if I had very mild undiagnosed ME as a child, which I suspect — I'm not sure exactly when it started — but that is one of the immune events in my history that potentially could have been an initial trigger.

I was considering taking Nattokinase as an adjuvant for destroying biofilm and microclots which can also potentially form a protective layer over bacteria, but similarly to you I have decided to hold off on that, because I don't want to interfere with the vaccines and if something majorly helped I wouldn't know which one it was. I stopped taking everything basically except some basic vit C, occasional fish oil, and vit D. (And the Canephron which has run out now, plus often a glass of cranberry juice)