Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

I know, it’s unbelievable that putin decided to invade right when we found this treatment.

ME/CFS seems to be dogged by something akin to Murphy's Law: if anything can go wrong, it will go wrong. Whenever an advancement is made in ME/CFS treatment, something comes along to thwart that gain.

We saw this with Prof Gottfries Staphypan Staphylococcus vaccine treatment of ME/CFS, which we might think of as a precursor to Dr Markov's treatment. Gottfries's clinical trials demonstrated that the Staphylococcus vaccine was a great treatment for a subset of patients; but then the Staphypan vaccine manufacturer decided to stop making Staphypan, thus taking away an effective treatment from ME/CFS patients.

 

[bensmith]

Yes : (

 

[Garz]

thanks for the updates

I hope you all can find a way to continue treatment in the not too distant future..

please do think about coordinating some kind of collaborative approach to build a more complete and compelling case for other sufferers.

all the best

 

[Hip]

please do think about coordinating some kind of collaborative approach to build a more complete and compelling case for other sufferers.

What we actually need is for a Western research group to organize say 20 ME/CFS patients to be treated by the Markov Clinic, and then to publish the results. The clinic themselves are keen to do this, in order to demonstrate the efficacy of their treatment.

 

[BrightCandle]

Looks like the clinic is starting up again tomorrow. I'll contact the clinic and get started as well. I was trying to get commercial ones from Cipher's list but I had a lot of issues buying them between sanctions and shortages and oddness where they won't ship to the UK specifically.

 

[Reading_Steiner]

I'm going to read the book "Toxic - heal your body from mold toxicity, lyme disease, multiple chemical sensitivities and chronic environmental illness ", by Neil Nathan MD, I think it might be helpful. I'm trying to figure out how important my chemical sensitivity is, whether chemical exposure causes the same effect as 'biotoxins' or mold toxin, or just amplifies it. I will also try to find out if these biotoxins are the cause of my CFS and whether its mold or bacteria thats responsible. I did a second VCS test last night using a different website and I also failed that one, again with the left eye being worse than the right. I'm still waiting for the things to test the urine for bacteria. Since being i'll i've lived in different environments for a few days, a month and 6 months respectively and it did not cure my disease, diet also doesn't seem to have a noticeable effect.

 

[hapl808]

I'm going to read the book "Toxic - heal your body from mold toxicity, lyme disease, multiple chemical sensitivities and chronic environmental illness ", by Neil Nathan MD, I think it might be helpful. I'm trying to figure out how important my chemical sensitivity is, whether chemical exposure causes the same effect as 'biotoxins' or mold toxin, or just amplifies it.

I've read it, seen a protege of Shoemaker, failed a VCS, etc. The problem is the various treatments haven't helped me all that much. Maybe slight improvements, but nothing significant. And some bad reactions.

Markov's relatively simple approach sounds very compelling, but I'd like to see some more significant results by more members. Pesky war getting in the way.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Looks like the clinic is starting up again tomorrow. I'll contact the clinic and get started as well. I was trying to get commercial ones from Cipher's list but I had a lot of issues buying them between sanctions and shortages and oddness where they won't ship to the UK specifically.

Ah awesome that's good news.

By the way - what made you decide to do the tart cherry to try and help with the kidney issues? Did you read it somewhere or Markov recommended it.? I can't remember if you said already sorry.

 

[Dufresne]

Have you not seen Dr Markov's published study on over 4000 ME/CFS patients? Certainly we need a a few replication studies before we can arrive at any conclusions; but one cannot claim there is no evidence when this material has been published.

By published study do you mean the 85 page hodgepodge with what looks to be Fm and CFS catchphrases sprinkled in for flavour? I admit I probably read less than 3% of it and these selections were just taken quickly and almost randomly, but here's a sample for anybody who hasn't looked at this:

“Doesn't resemble anything? And so it is: the complete coincidence of symptoms for FM, CFS
and CBIS is almost 98-100% that can hardly be an accidental or a simple coincidence. More over
disputes about eggs and chicken (depression and FM) in this case lose their meaning. These are
two equivalent in importance and severity states that are caused at CBIS by one reason: by severe
endotoxicosis on the background of nephrodisbacteriosis or pyelonephritis. To some extent the
very toxic origin may explain the appearance of many clinical symptoms at FM, which have not
in its base morphological, biochemical and other disorders and common causes. Drug treatment
of FM is carried out mainly as a symptomatic to relieve pain, muscle spasticity, irritability, sleep
disorders and symptoms of depression, which gives an incomplete and unstable result.”

“6. In CBIS-patients with autonomic neuropathies there were separately singled out autonomic
neuropathies which included functional disorders of the internal organs and glands, namely:
digestion (nausea, vomiting, bloating after eating, constipation or diarrhea), which were badly
healed by normal in such cases symptomatic treatment and which were observed in 19% of adults
and 10-14% of children, functioning of the urinary system with urinary disorders, partial urinary
incontinence etc., which bothered 29% of adults and 9-25% of children in different age groups, as
well as blurred vision with decreased visual acuity and clarity, which was complained of by 211/2340
(9%) adults and 35/870 (4%) schoolchildren.”

“7. Almost a quarter of men with CBIS (296/1287 or 23%), usually young and sexually active age
from 30 to 50 years, noted such manifestations of autonomous (autonomic) neuropathy as sexual
disorders, including the inability to achieve and maintain an erection (erectile dysfunction), problems
with ejaculation, decreased libido and potency. After starting treatment of nephrodisbacteriosis
and CBIS with bacterial vaccines, sexual function in almost all men was partially or more often
completely restored.”

Example 5
In February 2014 a 45-years-old young woman came to the clinic. At that time the revolution
of dignity had been going on in Kyiv for three months and the Maidan was raging, there were
shooting, patriots were dying every day for Ukraine's independence. The woman entered the office
by herself, ordering the man to sit in the waiting area. Despite the scorching cold outside, she
was wearing a light blouse and a white knitted hat. Pale tired focused face. She said that she lives
far away - she lives permanently in one of the post-Soviet republics. From the woman's story it
became clear that for the last 3 years she had suffered from CBIS, which was dominated by severe
daily fatigue, exhaustion, low-grade fever, reduced work efficiency and sharply increased sweating,
hair loss, constant joint pain and deep depression. The woman had typical fresh incisions on her
forearms, which are usually left by suicides (I have seen these many times in patients when I worked
in the AIDS unit). Intercepting my gaze, she leaned over the table and said in a confident, quiet
voice: “Yes, you understood everything correctly. I do not want and will not continue to live like
this, I'm tired. My last three years cannot be called life at all. It was just continuous torture. I can't
be treated, I've tried many times."


Is this a study? Dr Markov claims a 93% cure rate with thousands cured of ME/CFS, and nobody with ME/CFS has left a review? And the positive reviews on his site are for other varied conditions. It sounds to me like it was once sold as a cure for all sorts of things but Dr Markov decided to expand his target market to a large population of desperate people suffering from a mysterious condition. I'm usually very intrigued, or at least tolerant, of new ideas and treatments but this one sets off just about every possible alarm.

I admit I haven't gone through the 50+ pages of this thread, but I've put in a good 2 hours here and elsewhere and I'm shocked this is gaining such interest here. But hey, maybe this thing is a miracle cure. It actually reminds me of Ty Vincent's LDI/LDA therapy. And it looks like there's perhaps something to that one, though it doesn't seem to end up curing or seriously helping anyone I know of. I also remember the original staph vaccine treatment from long ago being somewhat interesting, so maybe this is plausible, even if it sells itself worse than just about anything I've come across.

 

[Hip]

By published study do you mean the 85 page hodgepodge with what looks to be Fm and CFS catchphrases sprinkled in for flavour? I admit I probably read less than 3% of it and these selections were just taken quickly and almost randomly, but here's a sample for anybody who hasn't looked at this:

The published paper is very wordy, and so hard to extract relevant info from it. Also, it's only one of several papers by Dr Igor Markov, there are also some others he says he plans to publish soon (though you can buy them).

I found it much easier to follow the Q&A thread of Dr Oleg Markov on this forum. I compiled everything Oleg said in the Q&A thread, plus info from the paper, into the first post of this thread. I think you will find that an easier to follow intro.

I am interested in hearing any skeptical scientific opinions about Dr Markov's theory. I have been disappointed by the lack of scientific skepticism and scientific discussion on this theory. In particular, the question of whether a set of bacterial toxins leaking into the systemic circulation could really be the cause of ME/CFS, as Dr Markov believes.

 

[Hip]

I also remember the original staph vaccine treatment from long ago being somewhat interesting, so maybe this is plausible, even if it sells itself worse than just about anything I've come across.

Some years ago, I actually had 3 weeks near remission from a Staphylococcus vaccine similar to the one used by Prof Gottfries in Sweden. I detail that remission here.

So this makes me think that Gottfries's treatment might be a more specific and version of the broader Markov treatment. Gottfries's treatment might only work for those with a Staph issue, whereas Dr Markov first identifies the culprit bacteria in ME/CFS patients (which can be Staphylococcus, but may also be one or more of several other bacterial species), and then he prescribes vaccines and autovaccines which target the specific bacteria the patient has.

Three people including myself are currently on the Markov protocol. I have not notice any improvements, but the other two report benefits.

 

[splusholia]

Thanks for the very clear instructions you wrote up, @Hip. I’ve contacted the clinic and will also try this. Interestingly, Mutaflor was the main treatment that took me from very severe to severe/moderate. Do you think oral probiotics could impact the microbiome in the kidney? Prior to my diagnosis I had problems with recurring UTI, and was on antibiotics.

 

[Hip]

Do you think oral probiotics could impact the microbiome in the kidney?

I also had a recurrent UTI for many years before my ME/CFS was triggered by a viral infection: every few weeks the UTI would flare up, and my urine would smell absolutely terrible for the 3 or 4 days of the flare up (like a terrible sewer-type smell). After I developed ME/CFS, I noticed these UTI flare ups would make me much more tired.

I tried various approaches to eradicating my recurrent UTI, including various antibiotic regimens, but antibiotics never seemed to help. The UTI would always return.

But once I started taking a protocol of probiotics plus prebiotics (like inulin 3 grams twice daily — prebiotics being the food for the friendly bacteria), not only did my brain fog, depression and anxiety symptoms improve, but I also noticed my UTI flare ups would occur much less frequently. The prebiotics I find are more powerful than the probiotics.

So I certainly noticed a connection between addressing gut bacteria with probiotics, and the urinary tract microbiome.


As as matter of interest, the treatment which finally almost cured my recurrent UTI was silica from horsetail herb (an old Roman treatment for UTIs). After I started taking around 500 mg of horsetail herb daily, eventually after a year my UTI flare ups almost entirely disappeared.

Silica is known to modulate glomerular function in the kidneys.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

@Hip have you tried taking horsetail again since that time?

 

[Hip]

@Hip have you tried taking horsetail again since that time?

Yes, I've taken horsetail for extended periods many times since.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Yes, I've taken horsetail for extended periods many times since.

Ah ok cool, so I guess no benefit using it for the Markov theory, or you would have noticed by now.

Why have you taken it since that time? More UTI stuff?

 

[Hip]

Why have you taken it since that time? More UTI stuff?

Sometimes I like to revisit supplements or drugs which I believe may have benefited me previously, in order to test them more fully.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Sometimes I like to revisit supplements or drugs which I believe may have benefited me previously, in order to test them more fully.

Thanks. Any verdict on horsetail?

 

[splusholia]

But once I started taking a protocol of probiotics plus prebiotics (like inulin 3 grams twice daily — prebiotics being the food for the friendly bacteria), not only did my brain fog, depression and anxiety symptoms improve, but I also noticed my UTI flare ups would occur much less frequently. The prebiotics I find are more powerful than the probiotics.

Yes - I read about your prebiotic experiments in another thread! I started a similar protocol about a year ago, with the same outcome. I still take them daily.

 

[Abha]

HIP....
As as matter of interest, the treatment which finally almost cured my recurrent UTI was silica from horsetail herb (an old Roman treatment for UTIs). After I started taking around 500 mg of horsetail herb daily, eventually after a year my UTI flare ups almost entirely disappeared.

Silica is known to modulate glomerular function in the kidneys.[/QUOTE]

@Hip...I recall Hip that you have another thread on selenium and that you take that daily too.As there is selenium in horsetail how do you balance that dosage?...Thanks.