Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

Incidentally, if there is an infection in a bodily organ, it is not just the LPS leaking into the bloodstream which can cause sickness behavior symptoms like fatigue, brain fog and depression.

There are four known pathways which detect infection or inflammation in the peripheral organs of the body, and signal that information to the brain. When the brain receives the signal, it automatically switches on the sickness behavior response, which prepares the body to fight the infection. The sickness behavior response is why you feel rotten if you catch a cold.

The symptoms of sickness behavior are similar to those of ME/CFS, and researchers have proposed that a chronically activated sickness behavior response could be part of the picture of ME/CFS.

One of the four pathways involves LPS, but other pathways involve other signaling circuits like the vagus nerve.

So if there is an infection in the kidney, it may not just be LPS which creates the sickness behavior symptoms, it may also be the vagus nerve detecting an inflammation in the kidneys and relaying this information to the brain.

These four pathways are like the body's fire alarms and smoke detectors: they raise the alarm whenever infection is detected in the organs. The four pathways are summarized in this post.

 

[Hip]

I found this paper on autovaccines from 1930 interesting and informative. It goes into detail about how the vaccines are prepared, and which conditions they work best for (remember that this was just before antibiotics became available).

The following excerpt explains how too high a dose of an autovaccine can be an issue:

I have never had a fatal result. I have had several vaccines in which the reactions were severe, but when these vaccines were kept down to small doses or were diluted they were used successfully.

In one case and intern gave 5 cc of a particularly strong vaccine, by mistake, 0.5 cc. The reaction was severe and cause the patient to stay in bed for several days.

I have had several patients in bed for a day or two following a maximum dose, but I consider this almost certain evidence of final beneficial results.

It's amusing that this doctor prides himself on never having killed a patient with his autovaccines!



This excerpt talks about the general efficacy of autovaccines, and which conditions they work best for:

In a summary of the general situation as to autogenous vaccine, it would seem that this form of therapy is being used less and less.

At the same time, results from improvement to complete recovery in certain types of cases can be obtained, conservatively, in 65% of cases. Occasionally, brilliant results follow.

At the same time, in certain cases in which a vaccine would seem to be most indicated, the results are flat failures.

Some of the types of cases in which the best results have been obtained are:

• furunculosis [= boils, an infection of a hair follicle];
• chronic infections from a single organism;
• focal infections, especially of the teeth, tonsils, nasal sinuses and prostate, with secondary manifestations such as arthritis, myocarditis, anemia, general pains and aches;
• headache;
• chronic pulmonary conditions other than tuberculosis;
• cystitis and urethritis;
• chronic osteomyelitis;
• chronic otitis media [infection of the middle ear];
• a few acute infections such as carbuncles [= boils due to infection of a group of adjacent hair follicle];
• abscesses;
• wound infection;
• chronic bacteraemia;
• preoperative resistance;
• prophylaxis, and recurrent colds

 

[hb8847]

Thank you for responding @ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS

I am interested in learning more about this treatment and possibly trying it out.

If you were in my shoes (note, many of us are bed-bound and located in countries far away from Ukraine), how would you go about this?

Could you give potential patients a list of actionable steps we could take?

 

[Hip]

Here is forum thread in Russian about of a Lyme disease patient who was treated by Dr Markov's autovaccines in 2013, which did not help, and caused an elevated temperature for several months.

But in another post, someone claims Markov cured an acquaintance's illness.

Some posts from the thread are copied below (Google translated to English):

Lyme disease for which autovaccines did not help:

roditeli_ 17 Jan 2013

Dr. I. Markov - survivors of the autovaccine We will not discuss the cost of treatment for the distinguished I. S., enough has been written about this.

Since 2006, our child has experienced a significant decrease in immunity, so we turned to Vitacell. Dr. Markov categorically diagnosed nephrodysbacteriosis, we are treating staphylococcus aureus. Were treated - it seemed to be easier, but the child continued to get sick often, there are signs of chronic fatigue syndrome, locomotive illness.

In 2011, it became very bad - he practically stopped going to school, chronic subfebrile condition and endless colds. Again we go to Dr. Markov. He got ready, met us charmingly, studied our card. Told us about the bacterium enterococcus fecalis - it's all about it.

We prepared an autovaccine and started treatment. After the first vaccination, things obviously didn't go well for us - the temperature was 38. We call the clinic. They answer, everything is OK, they do not connect with Markov.

A month later - pneumonia. We were treated with antibiotics for more than a month - thank God, we got out.

We call again to the clinic (we cannot come, another city). Guys, what's the matter? What to do next? The answer (again without connecting D. Markov) is to do a revaccination. We do it. The temperature is set at 38 and lasts for two months.

We call the clinic. Answer - pay for the online consultation (before that we have already paid more than $ 2000). OK, the child is very bad, we pay for it. Analyze and send it to us. We do, we send. We get the answer in six lines - the bacteria did not get into our nets, donate urine, guys! We catch the next "coke". We did the analyzes, we caught the next bacterium, and one of those that were in the vaccine.

We lose our temper, throw a scandal over the phone. On the trail. morning they deigned to connect us with the village of Markov. Temperature 38 three months? Yes, we have been walking with this for three years.

We decided to check the opinion of other doctors. The well-known urologist, having done his tests, did not agree with nephrodysbacteriosis, advised us to look for other reasons. A renowned immunologist warned us that autovaccination can lead to autoimmune diseases.

As a result, it turned out that the cause of our misfortunes was a tick bite in 2006, which was recorded in the child's card. The tick was taken out in Okhmatdet (Kiev). The diagnosis is advanced borrelosis. Treatment is exclusively with antibiotics, and in huge doses and for many months.

It turns out that due to an incorrect diagnosis and subsequent treatment with an autovaccine, we almost lost the child. Now (6 months. treatment), we managed to at least stabilize the temperature, and the son developed an interest in life, so think carefully about whether it is worth treating with such methods.

In fact, at least with us, it turned out quite differently from the diaries of Dr. Markov. Also, as a Doctor of Engineering, I believe that research should be published in peer-reviewed journals.

This patient complains that Dr Markov diagnosed kidney infection (nephrodysbacteriosis) and prescribed autovaccines within 2 minutes of the patient entering Dr Markov's office.

We 17 Jan 2013

Already everyone or almost everyone in Kiev knows what a "doctor" Markov is. BUT! for some reason it continues to "treat" people and children (!) without hesitation. And there are still people who want to ... I really sympathize with the author.

When I went to his office, after 2 minutes of talking with him, he already diagnosed me with nephrodysbacteriosis, and also after 2min. he already told me how he would cure me with vaccines.

A doctor who, having seen a person for 2 minutes, already knows everything, is something. I left, the main thing is to leave in time.

Here is one person whose acquaintance Dr Markov cured (their illness is not recorded):

Clerk 18 Jan 2013

he helped my mother's colleague a lot; the man had a very high temperature for many months. I was lying in different hospitals, a bunch of diagnoses, a bunch of studies, a bunch of medications - nothing helped. They grabbed Markov like a drowning man holding a straw - and he did help her. I don't remember the diagnosis now, but the woman recovered

This post talks about the the opinion of two immunologists regarding the possible risk of autovaccines triggering autoimmune diseases:

roditeli_ 20 Jan 2013

Autovaccine My wife and I are not doctors - we have a technical education. Therefore, everything that we will write about below is based on the retelling of the opinions of two famous immunologists, both of whom are doctors of medical sciences and are well known not only in the country, but also far beyond its borders.

Their opinions practically coincided. When drugs affect the immune system, it can be "overtrained", after which the immune system begins to confuse the cells of its body with foreign cells and declares war on its own body instead of protecting it. An autoimmune disease begins.

These are very serious diseases, against which medicine is practically powerless. The cause of such diseases can be heredity, the result of long-term treatment with antibiotics in large doses, as well as the use of autovaccines.

So, about autovaccines. Yes, Our consultants said evasively that the methods of treatment with autovaccines are known to medicine and in some cases acceptable results are achieved. However, no one can estimate where the borderline is, beyond which the use of an autovaccine can cause an autoimmune disease. This is the danger. Therefore, many specialists try to use other methods of treatment, more predictable.

 

[bensmith]

Hm lot of red flags. Looks like most other me treatments where its a gamble. Might help might not, no way to tell which you’ll be.

 

[Hip]

On this Markov Vitacell Clinic User Review Site (in Russian) there are again mixed reviews, with some people benefiting from autovaccine treatment, and others not.


Here is one person who wanted to "howl from torment" for a month after autovaccine treatment:

ANGELICA January 28, 2018

On the recommendation of my attending physician, I was sent to the Markov Clinic LLC, I will not describe the history of my illness, but I have been sick for 15 years, I suffered a cough, the doctors find nothing, checked everything that is possible in my body, sent me in February 2017 to this Markov Clinic, so that they could prepare a special autovaccine from 3 types of bacteria, they said try it all of a sudden it will help.

They took from me 1550 UAH [= US$ 57] for 10 ampoules, and after the 8th injection I feel very bad so that I cannot describe it with a pen, I thought the end, I wanted to howl from torment. I suffered for a month and could not do anything, including looking at food, apparently there was an intoxication in the body (this is my opinion), but in fact I do not know what kind of vaccines they have, from what they make them.

Naturally I called the clinic and told them about it, but they do not see their guilt and, naturally, are not particularly talkative about this topic, there was no apology and they did not want to figure it out. This is the attitude towards people. I do not recommend this clinic to anyone, they are all white and fluffy when they take money.

But here is a person whose father-in-law had chronic furunculosis (boils) which antibiotics could not permanently heal, finding relief at the Markov clinic:

NATALIYA SVIRIDONOVA June 01, 2017

I recommend Dr. Markov as an excellent specialist. They contacted about furunculosis, our medicine was powerless, the father-in-law suffered for two years, the body was in constant wounds. The transfusion did not help; antibiotics put out the trouble for a while. I accidentally saw a video with the doctor's speech, I found the clinic via the Internet.

I advise everyone who suffers from persistent teals.

 

[Sushi]

I wonder if autovaccines are similar to homeopathic nosodes, which are intriguing to me?

Nosodes

are the homoeopathic medicines prepared from diseased products of biological origin. These are commonly used in clinical practice for the prophylaxis and treatment of ailments including infectious diseases.

 

[Hip]

Here are some other forum threads and user review about Dr Markov's Vitacell clinic. Again mixed reviews, some highly praising Dr Markov for the effectiveness of his treatment, other saying that the treatment had no effect, and it was a waste of money.

You can use Google Translate to read them (or if you use the Google Chrome browser, translation is built in: just right click on the webpage and select "Translate to English").

• Who was treated at the Vitacell clinic? (2005)
• Markov clinic "Vitacel" (2012)
• Vitacell Clinic - Center for Diagnosis and Treatment of Chronic Infections (2018)
• CLINIC VITACELL (2019)
• Clinic Vitacell (2020)

So it seems like autovaccine treatment can be a gamble: it pays off well for some, but does not help others (and can sometimes cause adverse effects). But you may not know in advance whether you are going to be one of the lucky ones that it works for.

 

[bensmith]

Blah. So much hope for escape.

 

[andyguitar]

The vitacell clinic also has a facebook account. There are some positive comments, some negative. I'd be more interested in those comments than anonymous ones on the internet. I won't bother picking holes in the negative reviews on Google ect.

 

[Hip]

I wonder if autovaccines are similar to homeopathic nosodes, which are intriguing to me?

An interesting thought. I did not know what nosodes were until I looked it up just now, although I'd seen the term before.


From this study, where a nosode is prepared from bacteria-infected tissue, the way it is described seems like it is similar to autovaccines, in concept at least.

The difference seems to be that nosodes are given orally, whereas autovaccines are injected. Also, an autovaccine is prepared from the patients own bacteria infection, whereas a nosode is not prepared from bacteria which comes from the patient, but from a general stock of the bacteria.


There do not seem to be many scientific studies looking at nosodes, but this randomized blinded placebo-controlled trial unfortunately found nosodes do not increase antibody levels in people.

The trial gave its participants either diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, mumps and measles nosodes, or conventional vaccines for the same pathogens. Those given the conventional vaccines were found to have raised antibodies, as you would expect; but those given nosodes did not have increased antibody levels.

EDIT: this study only tested IgG but not IgA antibodies. It is possible that the nosode may have stimulated mucosal immunity, which involves IgA antibodies, but this was not tested by the study.

 

[Sushi]

Also, an autovaccine is prepared from the patients own bacteria infection, whereas a nosode is not prepared from bacteria which comes from the patient, but from a general stock of the bacteria.

Some homeopaths prepare these individually from the patient's own specimens. I knew a homeopath who did this with some success but of course her patients were not studied so it is anecdotal.

 

[hb8847]

Remarkable detective work @Hip.

@ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS Do you have any comment?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

ME/CFS/ - no mystery no more! Thanks @Hip

 

[Alvin2]

I found this paper on autovaccines from 1930 interesting and informative. It goes into detail about how the vaccines are prepared, and which conditions they work best for (remember that this was just before antibiotics became available).

The following excerpt explains how too high a dose of an autovaccine can be an issue:

It's amusing that this doctor prides himself on never having killed a patient with his autovaccines!

This excerpt talks about the general efficacy of autovaccines, and which conditions they work best for:
Some of the types of cases in which the best results have been obtained are:

• furunculosis [= boils, an infection of a hair follicle];
• chronic infections from a single organism;
• focal infections, especially of the teeth, tonsils, nasal sinuses and prostate, with secondary manifestations such as arthritis, myocarditis, anemia, general pains and aches;
• headache;
• chronic pulmonary conditions other than tuberculosis;
• cystitis and urethritis;
• chronic osteomyelitis;
• chronic otitis media [infection of the middle ear];
• a few acute infections such as carbuncles [= boils due to infection of a group of adjacent hair follicle];
• abscesses;
• wound infection;
• chronic bacteraemia;
• preoperative resistance;
• prophylaxis, and recurrent colds

I am reminded of the hype behind Oregano oil, from what i understand its a decent antibiotic but the dozens of conditions its "indicated" for are hogwash.

Here is forum thread in Russian about of a Lyme disease patient who was treated by Dr Markov's autovaccines in 2013, which did not help, and caused an elevated temperature for several months.

But in another post, someone claims Markov cured an acquaintance's illness.

Some posts from the thread are copied below (Google translated to English):

Lyme disease for which autovaccines did not help:

This patient complains that Dr Markov diagnosed kidney infection (nephrodysbacteriosis) and prescribed autovaccines within 2 minutes of the patient entering Dr Markov's office.

Here is one person whose acquaintance Dr Markov cured (their illness is not recorded):

This post talks about the the opinion of two immunologists regarding the possible risk of autovaccines triggering autoimmune diseases:

Brings to mind the expression: When you are a hammer everything is a nail.

 

[Hufsamor]

@Hip
Incredible work!
You’re the best!
Thanks

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Let me quickly summarize the research and ME/CFS treatment of Dr Igor Markov of the Markov Clinic in Kiev, Ukraine, as I understand it.

I think his ME/CFS treatment approach using autovaccines instead of antibiotics is interesting, and worth examining.

How effective it is, I am not clear on. I have only just skimmed through his published work (which is 85 pages long), and I am not good a reading long articles.

So I have not yet been able to find any info on the type of ME/CFS patients treated (which ME/CFS criteria they satisfied), or their illness severity on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate and severe.


Dr Markov believes ME/CFS is caused by an ongoing bacterial infection in the kidneys (which may be asymptomatic, so you may not know it is there), which he says is constantly releasing bacterial endotoxins (presumably LPS) into the bloodstream. He says these endotoxins are the cause of ME/CFS.

Dr Markov treats ME/CFS by using an autovaccine to target the bacteria infection in the kidneys.

An autovaccine is an individualized vaccine, custom made for each patient, which contains sterilized components of the bacterial infection. As I understand it, the infection is isolated from the patient, grown in culture in the lab, and then the sterilized filtrate from the lab culture is prepared as an autovaccine. This vaccine then stimulates the immune system to fight the particular infection that you have (in your kidneys in this case).

Use of such autovaccines to treat bacteria infection dates back to before the era of antibiotics, and autovaccines are still used to day to treat animal infections.



The idea that bacterial LPS endotoxin may play a role in ME/CFS is not new: Dr Michael Maes looked into LPS entering into the bloodstream of ME/CFS patients from a leaky gut, and he found clinical improvement when patients were treated with leaky gut-fixing supplements and diet.

But the novelty of Dr Igor Markov's work is that he is not looking at gut bacteria for the source of LPS, rather he believes the endotoxin / LPS is coming from bacteria living in the kidneys.

Furthermore, Dr Markov does not use antibiotics to address this kidney infection, but autovaccines. I don't know the reason for this, but perhaps autovaccines are more effective, and have a long-lasting effect, against bacteria.



I'd like to get more information about autovaccines, because I wonder if they might also be effective for other bacterial conditions often found in ME/CFS, such as small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), which is notoriously hard to eradicate with standard antibiotics.

If autovaccines were effective for SIBO, that would be very useful. New research shows that most cases of IBS may in fact be caused by SIBO.

I just had an ultrasound that found my left kidney was larger than the right side they suspected I had a Dromedary Hump pseudotumor, the sent me to a Surgeon in Urology he said it is not one it is something likely congenital, I do not need Surgery done so I wonder if an infection could have done this?

 

[Aidan Walsh]

I've done a review..
Their results are creditable, their treatment is creditable — their model may not be
It is just an alternative path to the same goal -- changing the bacteria in the body that is causing ME/CFS. They found the bacteria include combinations of ( enterococci, enterobacteria-Escherichia coli, Klebsiella, Proteus, Enterobacteriaceae, Morganella, Acinetobacteria, Hafnia, Seratia, Staphylococcus and Streptococcus ). Instead of using antibiotics, they use vaccines (phages are still a third option).

https://cfsremission.com/2021/06/01/is-me-cfs-a-case-of-cbis/

What are phages Lassesen? thanks

 

[hb8847]

I've done a review..
Their results are creditable, their treatment is creditable — their model may not be
It is just an alternative path to the same goal -- changing the bacteria in the body that is causing ME/CFS. They found the bacteria include combinations of ( enterococci, enterobacteria-Escherichia coli, Klebsiella, Proteus, Enterobacteriaceae, Morganella, Acinetobacteria, Hafnia, Seratia, Staphylococcus and Streptococcus ). Instead of using antibiotics, they use vaccines (phages are still a third option).

https://cfsremission.com/2021/06/01/is-me-cfs-a-case-of-cbis/

So, digging into this a bit, @Lassesen cited the following paper:

Vaccine development for enteric bacterial pathogens: Where do we stand?

Abstract: Gut infections triggered by pathogenic bacteria lead to most frequently occurring diarrhea in humans accounting for million deaths annually. Currently, only a few licensed vaccines are available against these pathogens for mostly travelers moving to diarrheal endemic areas. Besides commercialized vaccines, there are many formulations that are either under clinical or pre-clinical stages of development and despite several efforts to improve safety, immunogenicity and efficacy, none of them can confer long-term protective immunity, for which repeated booster doses are always recommended. Further in many countries, financial, social and political constraints have jeopardized vaccine development program against these pathogens that enforce us to gather knowledge on safety, tolerability, immunogenicity and protective efficacy regarding the same. In this review, we analyze safety and efficacy issues of vaccines against five major gut bacteria causing enteric infections. The article also simultaneously describes several barriers for vaccine development and further discusses possible strategies to enhance immunogenicity and efficacy

Conclusion: Orally administered vaccines against pathogenic gut bacteria hold a great promise to reduce the burden of diarrheal diseases and despite serious efforts to make highly potent and efficient GBVs, successful commercialization has only been made for vaccines against Salmonella Typhi and Vibrio cholerae. However, the vaccine formulations against other enteric bacterial pathogens, such as Salmonella Typhimurium, Shigella flexneri, Shigella sonnei, Shigella dysenterie and ETEC, have shown remarkable safety and efficacy in different phases of clinical trials. Notably, Campylobacter jejuni poses an alarming health threat and absence of an appropriate vaccine against this pathogen has always been disappointing due to failure of vaccine efficacy in clinical trials. In this review, we tried to address the current scenario in this field with special emphasis on various challenges against vaccine development. More importantly, we also discussed modern vaccine technologies for pathogenic gut bacteria and suggested possible strategies to generate highly efficacious vaccines, which might be useful for researchers to generate ideal vaccine candidates... (continued)

So the focus here appears to be on using auto vaccines against gut bacteria that specifically cause diarrhoea, and to my untrained eye the results appear very positive? And I see no reason why then they wouldn't also work against other nefarious bacteria either in the gut or in the rest of the body, including the kidneys? If I'm wrong here please point it out.

@Lassesen also states that:

"A vaccine against a kidney bacteria will also have direct impact on the same bacteria in the gut microbiome. On the flip side, appropriate antibiotics would also impact the same bacteria in the Jadin’s protocol using antibiotics will also impact kidney infections."

Presumably antibiotics would just target ANY bacteria and just nuke everything in sight though, is that not the main benefit of these auto vaccines?

Furthermore, if you take antibiotics that are specifically focused on this gut, like Rifaximin, where part of their efficacy comes from the fact they're poorly absorbed by the blood stream and therefore more likely to reside in the gut, presumably this would limit said antibiotics' effect on bacteria in the kidneys or elsewhere?

 

[Hip]

So the focus here appears to be on using auto vaccines against gut bacteria that specifically cause diarrhoea, and to my untrained eye the results appear very positive?

The paper you quoted talks about regular vaccines for the prevention of acute gut bacterial infections that you might catch.

This is different to an autovaccine, which is designed to boost the immune response against chronic bacterial infections you already have.