Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Ah OK that's interesting. So what, Markov's idea is the bacteria is present in CFS patients but the lab doc says it would be present in all patients? Surely Markov's theory would be easily provable with samples from a healthy control group... you claim to have this don't you @ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS ?

I think what the doc wanted to say is that if you test warm urine you have to test it right after peeing... Or the bacteria would grow rapidly. Otherwise you have to freeze it. But the results would be the same.

 

[Hip]

A consensus theory is not what we need, taking everyone who has an idea and melding them into a grand theory

Scientific theories are not really discovered by consensus; a scientific theory is obtained by throwing out all the stuff that you think is wrong, and keeping the stuff that you think is right. But we will take this thread off track if we start discussing the scientific method here.

 

[Hip]

But it should be detectable with a normal urine culture. Asked a lab doc. He says it’s “nonsense”. Urine had to be frozen within a short period of time and if not bacteria grow rapidly and you surely have a positive test result. But I agree with you! If they would provide more replicable data....

Dr Markov said in an earlier post that using warm urine increases the sensitivity of the urine culture by 2.5 to 2.7 times. So I guess you could use cold urine, but your chances of detecting the culprit bacteria will be reduced.

Markov requires 3 urine samples taken on three consecutive days in the morning. I believe using 3 samples rather than 1 will again increase the sensitivity, and increase the chances of detecting the bacteria.

Dr Markov also said that if you currently have a regular urinary tract infection, a standard lab urine bacterial culture is fine. See this post. If you have a regular raging urinary tract infection, I guess there will be much more bacteria in the urine, so the standard lab test for a urine infection will be OK; you would not need warm urine in this case.


When Dr Markov talks of nephrodysbacteriosis (kidney dysbiosis) in ME/CFS patients, this is not a normal infection of the kidneys, just as dysbiosis of the colon (common in ME/CFS) is not a classical infection of the intestines.

Dysbiosis is defined as the situation where populations of harmful bacteria or fungi outweigh the populations of beneficial bacteria. So dysbiosis is not a raging infection, but an imbalance between good and bad bacteria.

So because in nephrodysbacteriosis there is no raging infection in the kidney, it is harder to detect the infection.

This is my understanding, anyway, of what Dr Markov has said.

Surely Markov's theory would be easily provable with samples from a healthy control group.

Dr Markov did test healthy controls. He found that in 70 healthy control adults, only 7% have this nephrodysbacteriosis (kidney dysbiosis) infection. See this post.



I am currently working on a new aautovaccines summary thread which I will post on PR shortly, which places all the important information that Dr Markov provided in this thread into one post, for ease of reading and ease of reference.

 

[bensmith]

Thanks hip. I hope somebody tries it and they get cured.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Thanks hip. I hope somebody tries it and they get cured.

Don’t we have a board member from the Ukraine?

 

[bensmith]

Yes but he didn’t seem that interested.

 

[Jyoti]

I am currently working on a new aautovaccines summary thread which I will post on PR shortly, which places all the important information that Dr Markov provided in this thread into one post, for ease of reading and ease of reference.

That's great! Thank you @Hip!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Yes but he didn’t seem that interested.

 

[bensmith]

I guess it wouldnt prove anything either way, but it would be nice to see if its even possible.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I guess it wouldnt prove anything either way, but it would be nice to see if its even possible.

But there must be a Ukrainian ME forum. And if Markov has such a great success rate they would discuss that. That would be the first step I think.

 

[Boba]

I honestly don’t think that there‘s anything useful about this Markov topic. Obviously I will be happy if they prove the opposite. It’s just about making money from my point of view.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I honestly don’t think that there‘s anything useful about this Markov topic. Obviously I will be happy if they prove the opposite. It’s just about making money from my point of view.

+1

 

[Hip]

I honestly don’t think that there‘s anything useful about this Markov topic. Obviously I will be happy if they prove the opposite. It’s just about making money from my point of view.

If it was all about making money, and nothing else, why would Dr Markov make it so difficult for international patients to provide urine samples? Dr Markov says it requires warm urine fresh from the bladder, which then means it is very difficult for international patients to get this autovaccine treatment.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

If it was all about making money, and nothing else, why would Dr Markov make it so difficult for international patients to provide urine samples? Dr Markov says it requires warm urine fresh from the bladder, which then means it is very difficult for international patients to get this autovaccine treatment.

Would be strange to write sth in his paper and then claim here sth differently.
But maybe you're right... Would be great if you're right! This is why I think they would discuss it in forums.

 

[Boba]

If it was all about making money, and nothing else, why would Dr Markov make it so difficult for international patients to provide urine samples? Dr Markov says it requires warm urine fresh from the bladder, which then means it is very difficult for international patients to get this autovaccine treatment.

I get your point. Still, what does this have to do with ME? The comments for whatever illness were mixed. He has a TM on an illness, this is weird. However I‘m sure some people, find relieve for their illness with his method. Sure. But I just can’t believe he‘s able to cure even a subset of ME.

He wants to be a part of the game and get money from desperate patients and potentially from OMF or other charities.

I can’t remember if there was a report for at least one ME patient benefitting from this. If there are so many, where are they? I see from my own behavior that I pause all rational thinking for the feeling of hope.

As mentioned I‘m more than happy if there is sth about this method. And I have to add, seeing you being interested in this method and the mechanism behind gives me the impression that there might be sth about this. But just because of your interest in it, not because of their messaging. You are way more knowledgeable than me and I read your posts with huge interest and respect.

 

[Hip]

Still, what does this have to do with ME?

Did you see my earlier posts about other researchers suggesting bacterial endotoxin (LPS) could be playing a role in ME/CFS? Prof Michael Maes is one such researcher.

I can’t remember if there was a report for at least one ME patient benefitting from this. If there are so many, where are they?

The lack of autovaccine success stories for ME/CFS patients is strange. But then if we consider something like the oxymatrine treatment of enterovirus ME/CFS, which Dr Chia reports makes major improvements in around 30% of his ME/CFS patients, there is a distinct lack of oxymatrine success stories online. In all these years, I have only seen 3 stories, which I listed in the Recovery and Improvement thread.

Have you looked into oxymatrine by the way? Enterovirus and coronavirus share certain similarities.

And I have to add, seeing you being interested in this method and the mechanism behind gives me the impression that there might be sth about this.

I tend to get excited and interested in many new ME/CFS ideas, theories or treatments. Over the years, many things have come up, and often I will spend a lot of time reading into them. So do lots of ME/CFS patients. That's why there have been some great in depth discussions on PR.

Of course, most of these theories or treatments have not worked out. However, at some point there will be a new theory or treatment of ME/CFS that turns out to be be the answer. So that's why I think ME/CFS patients tend to show interest in each new glimmer of hope that arrives.

 

[Boba]

Did you see my earlier posts about other researchers suggesting bacterial endotoxin (LPS) could be playing a role in ME/CFS? Prof Michael Maes is one such researcher.

I remember reading about it, but it got lost in my memory. Will have a look at it. Thanks

The lack of autovaccine success stories for ME/CFS patients is strange. But then if we consider something like the oxymatrine treatment of enterovirus ME/CFS, which Dr Chia reports makes major improvements in around 30% of his ME/CFS patients, there is a distinct lack of oxymatrine success stories online. In all these years, I have only seen 3 stories, which I listed in the Recovery and Improvement thread.

Have you looked into oxymatrine by the way? Enterovirus and coronavirus share certain similarities.

That's true about a lot of treatments , for sure. I'm very puzzled about all these different types of recoveries/improvements. Shows me even more how complicated this disease is.

I never looked into it. Don't know how to get it here in Germany. However I still think that there's no virus left in me, but my immune system is out of whack.

Actually I have a theory why it got out of whack. I became symptomatic after a long hike up on a mountain with a following dip in an ice cold sea. 2 h after that I started to get a headache. Obviously my immune system was suppressed after that. In addition I spread the viral load all over my body. My system was strong enough to prevent the virus from killing me, but it had to overreact and never got back to normal. Maybe some pathways got altered.

Therefore I'm very critical about the viral persistence theory.

However, at some point there will be a new theory or treatment of ME/CFS that turns out to be be the answer. So that's why I think ME/CFS patients tend to show interest in each new glimmer of hope that arrives.

I really hope that there'll be such a treatment.

 

[Hip]

Therefore I'm very critical about the viral persistence theory.

In the case of enterovirus ME/CFS, it's a fact that there are persistent enterovirus infections in the tissues of ME/CFS patients. Numerous studies have found this. I can provide references if you are interested. You will not find much virus in the blood in ME/CFS, but if you cut out a piece of muscle or stomach tissue of an ME/CFS patient, you will often find enterovirus there.

Lots of researchers think that just because blood PCR tests are usually negative in ME/CFS patients, that this rules out an infection. Well infections do not always appear in the blood. They can be in the tissues, or in the cerebrospinal fluid.

Whether this chronic enterovirus infection in the tissues actually causes ME/CFS, or plays a causal role, we do not know at this stage. But we do know that nearly all cases of ME/CFS start after a viral infection, so it certainly seems that viruses can trigger this disease under certain circumstances.


Your theory that immune suppression may have allowed your virus to trigger ME/CFS is consistent with other observations along these lines.

Dr Chia found that people who were inadvertently given immunosuppressive corticosteroids during an acute viral infection had increased risk of developing ME/CFS. Immunosuppressive cortisol levels are also raised when you are suffering major chronic stress, and several studies shown that ME/CFS patients suffered from major chronic stress just before they caught the virus which triggered their ME/CFS.

 

[Boba]

In the case of enterovirus ME/CFS, it's a fact that there are persistent enterovirus infections in the tissues of ME/CFS patients. Numerous studies have found this. I can provide references if you are interested. You will not find much virus in the blood in ME/CFS, but if you cut out a piece of muscle or stomach tissue of an ME/CFS patient, you will often find enterovirus there.

Thank you. I read bout these findings. I'm asking myself if Ron Davis did check Whitney for Viruses in tissue. That would be an easy thing to do.

Lots of researchers think that just because blood PCR tests are usually negative in ME/CFS patients, that this rules out an infection. Well infections do not always appear in the blood. Thay can be in the tissues, or in the cerebrospinal fluid

For Covid they even found viral RNA in the blood of patients 15 months after the infection. I remember one patient tweeting about this. She didn’t have ME though but Dysautonomia. Furthermore there were more reports about covid RNA in tissues & obviously in the brain. I'm still not sure how to link this to ME.

BTW: Biden is investing 3 Billion for Covid antivirals. This might be useful for other RNA Viruses.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/17/politics/biden-administration-antiviral-medicine/index.html

Your theory that immune suppression may have allowed your virus to trigger ME/CFS is consistent with other observations along these lines.

Dr Chia found that people who were inadvertently given immunosuppressive corticosteroids during an acute viral infection had increased risk of developing ME/CFS. Immunosuppressive cortisol levels are also raised when you are suffering major chronic stress, and several studies shown that ME/CFS patients suffered from major chronic stress just before they caught the virus which triggered their ME/CFS.

I believe this is a bit thing for a lot of ME cases. Athletes for example. Hard workouts compromise you immune system up to 3 days. Running for an hour can already be too much.
I'm pretty sure that this is the reason why I came down with ME. My system was compromised when the viral load was at it's peak. The acute phase was still moderate though. This illness is such a mystery. I wonder how I'm surviving day by day...

 

[Perfson]

Don’t we have a board member from the Ukraine?

Im new member, but from Ukraine. I would enjoy going full bankrupt, if i was 100% legit treatment, no questions asked. But i doubt that i will survive if it's all a scam.