Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[andyguitar]

I honestly don’t think that there‘s anything useful about this Markov topic.

Do you mean that autovaccines dont work for any illness or that they could'nt work for me/cfs? Same question for you @Martin aka paused||M.E. and @Alvin2

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Do you mean that autovaccines dont work for any illness or that they could'nt work for me/cfs? Same question for you @Martin aka paused||M.E. and @Alvin2

I doubt that auto vaccines would cure ME. But I'm happy if I'm wrong

 

[Alvin2]

Do you mean that autovaccines dont work for any illness or that they could'nt work for me/cfs? Same question for you @Martin aka paused||M.E. and @Alvin2

At this point we have only the word of some random person with no credibility and even less available data.

This is a random idea and its a one treatment fixes all solution which is even less likely, from the sounds of it he is using it on multiple unrelated diseases becasue its what he knows. Analogous to a hepatologist claiming they can cure everything from brain cancer to cataracts.

 

[Hip]

I am getting very excited about Dr Markov's nephrodysbacteriosis theory of ME/CFS! The more I read, the more some of the pieces seem to fall into place.

I am currently investigating how bacterial toxins like LPS might induce the many pathophysiological features we know exist in ME/CFS, like brain inflammation, mitochondrial issues, and energy metabolism problems.

So far in my investigation, I am finding that LPS could offer an explanation for several of these ME/CFS pathophysiological features.

For example, this study found that mice exposed to LPS entered into a hypometabolic state.

This hypometabolic state occurs to conserve energy, so that the immune system has sufficient energy to fight off the infection (since the presence of LPS normally signifies the existence of a bacterial infection).


I am working on an article which summarizes the information Dr Markov has provided in this thread. There is a lot to digest. I am going to post that article in a new Phoenix Rising thread shortly.

And also in this article I am going to detail my findings of how bacterial toxins entering the blood could lead to the known pathophysiological features of ME/CFS.

 

[perrier]

I am getting very excited about Dr Markov's nephrodysbacteriosis theory of ME/CFS! The more I read, the more some of the pieces seem to fall into place.

I am currently investigating how bacterial toxins like LPS might induce the many pathophysiological features we know exist in ME/CFS, like brain inflammation, mitochondrial issues, and energy metabolism problems.

So far in my investigation, I am finding that LPS could offer an explanation for several of these ME/CFS pathophysiological features.

For example, this study found that mice exposed to LPS entered into a hypometabolic state.

This hypometabolic state occurs to conserve energy, so that the immune system has sufficient energy to fight off the infection (since the presence of LPS normally signifies the existence of a bacterial infection).


I am working on an article which summarizes the information Dr Markov has provided in this thread. There is a lot to digest. I am going to post that article in a new Phoenix Rising thread shortly.

And also in this article I am going to detail my findings of how bacterial toxins entering the blood could lead to the known pathophysiological features of ME/CFS.

If you think it reasonable, perhaps Dr Ron Davis ought to have a look.

 

[Sushi]

Do you test for blood LPS levels, for example?

How about a poll in this thread asking whether you have been tested for the levels of LPS in the blood? I have and they were high.

 

[andyguitar]

If you think it reasonable, perhaps Dr Ron Davis ought to have a look.

A consultant Immunologist with an open mind would be helpful.

 

[Hip]

How about a poll in this thread asking whether you have been tested for the levels of LPS in the blood? I have and they were high.

That's a good idea. I will set up a poll thread asking about LPS levels.

 

[Hip]

If you think it reasonable, perhaps Dr Ron Davis ought to have a look.

Once I have posted the summary thread, I will make Janet Dafoe aware of it, so that she can pass the info to Prof Ron Davis.

 

[seamyb]

If you think it reasonable, perhaps Dr Ron Davis ought to have a look.

I like how you put Hip up there with Davis. Don't disagree.

 

[Hip]

I like how you put Hip up there with Davis. Don't disagree.

I think we can say there is a bit of a difference between a professor of biochemistry and genetics, and an ME/CFS patient like me who tinkers around with drugs and supplements at home in the hope of finding something which might help!

 

[perrier]

I like how you put Hip up there with Davis. Don't disagree.

I like how you put Hip up there with Davis. Don't disagree.

I respect Hip very much, he is intelligent, thoughtful,kind, compassionate--just the sort of scientists we need more of. So, yes, I value his views.

 

[hb8847]

I am getting very excited about Dr Markov's nephrodysbacteriosis theory of ME/CFS! The more I read, the more some of the pieces seem to fall into place.

I am currently investigating how bacterial toxins like LPS might induce the many pathophysiological features we know exist in ME/CFS, like brain inflammation, mitochondrial issues, and energy metabolism problems.

Well if you're excited then so am I.

Regarding "Nephrodysbacteriosis", do we have any evidence that the bacterial endotoxins are specifically from the kidneys and not elsewhere in the body (ie, the gut), beyond the explanations that (a) considerably more blood is processed by the kidneys than bypasses the gut and (b) endotoxins from the gut are processed first by the liver?

I mean it makes logical sense (assuming these are both medically correct statements), I'm just wondering whether we have any evidence that points unequivocally to the kidneys as the problem zone.

I say this because, if I understand autovaccines correctly, even if they work it doesn't necessarily indicate the problem is in the kidneys, it could just be working on bacterial dysbiosis elsewhere in the body, no?

 

[seamyb]

I think we can say there is a bit of a difference between a professor of biochemistry and genetics, and an ME/CFS patient like me who tinkers around with drugs and supplements at home in the hope of finding something which might help!

We need both the professor of biochemistry and genetics and the proactive patient tinkerer. Short and long term hope.

 

[Hip]

@Hipsman found this post on a Russian ME/CFS forum of (presumably) an ME/CFS patient who reports Dr Markov's autovaccine treatment cured her.

EDIT: it turned out this was not an ME/CFS patient.

The thread is entitled: Markov Igor Semenovich, infectious disease specialist (Kiev).


This is an English translation of her post:

ElenaS — 14 Jul 2019

Guys, I do not persuade anyone and do not force anyone to go to him. There have always been many negative reviews about him. And at 12, too, and now. So decide for yourself. His technique (anataxin, bacteriophages and autovaccines) helps only when the cause is bacteria. It helped me.

At the age of 12, staphylococcus and Klebsiella, which had been sitting there for many years, and were not sensitive to anything, left the nose and throat. Sinusitis has not existed for 7 years. And apparently in 17-18.

Since after 2 courses of autovaccines my temperature has passed, and for 1.5 years now everything is ok.
True, I was simultaneously treated by him and drank Izatizon from Potopalsky. What worked more - I don't know, but it's a fact.

And yes, I have 7 in my blood according to Ramodanov, and consistently low nc cells (2-3%, at a rate of at least 6).

True, after recovery, I will never get to check these tests. Maybe that has changed.

And I had a low-grade fever for 1.5 years and I was treated by Maltsev, Kazimirchuk and another immunologist. And in the end, only this helped. So in my case, apparently, it was not a matter of herpes.

By the way, Markov also treated my son and husband. My son had frequent colds and a persistent runny nose in the kindergarten. We treated him with toxoid - it helped for 5-6 months. Then on a new one. As a result, the cause turned out to be in the adenoids. Which grew very quickly, and in a year they grew up to 2-3 degrees. Even the rumor began to disappear. Cut out - everything is gone. Now 8.5 years old - practically does not get sick, mmm.

And my husband had bronchitis. As stable as it cools in winter, it starts to cough. I went through 2 courses of vaccine treatment with Markov - it became much better. Not perfect though. This winter, too, I began to cough a little, apparently not everything was completely killed yet. But in the end, he managed with herbal teas and a course of bronchipret. And everything went very quickly. What will happen next - we'll see.

If you still need it, then Markov will take another course. Fortunately, it is not very difficult and not expensive.
So here are 3 cases from my family.

And no, another case with a daughter of 16 years old. She recently began to worry about gynecological problems (itching). So we went to a gynecologist, to a commercial clinic near the house (svyatoshino, this is the other end of the city) They checked her ultrasound and so on, and took smears and cultures. So they send the crops to the Markov clinic. By the way, they came almost perfect.

So many clinics trust Markov's lab, and they send crops to him. But again, only crops, and other tests for bacterial. The immunogram, for example, in his lab is disgusting - they can draw anything at all.
So if you suspect a bacteriologist, then you can just get tested. And with other reasons - this is definitely not for him. He's no immunologist.

I have not had a chance to check through her earlier posts on that Russian forum, to ensure that she is a ME/CFS patient, and to see what sort of ME/CFS severity she had before being cured.

If you use the Google Chrome browser, it can automatically translate these Russian forum pages into English.

 

[Hip]

Regarding "Nephrodysbacteriosis", do we have any evidence that the bacterial endotoxins are specifically from the kidneys and not elsewhere in the body (ie, the gut), beyond the explanations that (a) considerably more blood is processed by the kidneys than bypasses the gut and (b) endotoxins from the gut are processed first by the liver?

I mean it makes logical sense (assuming these are both medically correct statements), I'm just wondering whether we have any evidence that points unequivocally to the kidneys as the problem zone.

I say this because, if I understand autovaccines correctly, even if they work it also doesn't necessarily indicate the problem is in the kidneys, it could just be working on bacterial dysbiosis elsewhere in the body, no?

Yes, I also wonder whether the autovaccines might be working at other mucous membranes as well as the kidneys, like the gut, nasal/sinus cavities, gums in the mouth, lungs, which according to a paper discussed in this earlier post, are the main areas where LPS can enter the bloodstream (with the gut normally being the largest source of bloodstream LPS).

That paper does not mention the kidneys as a source, but Dr Markov says nephrodysbacteriosis (kidney bacterial dysbiosis) is not known to medical science, and is his discovery.



Dr Oleg Markov said earlier in this thread:

We have not detected a noticeable influence of autovaccines on the balance of the intestinal bacterial flora, although, perhaps, this issue requires additional study.

So Dr Markov has not noticed any changes in the intestinal microbiome as a result of autovaccine treatment. And you would have thought that if autovaccines were working for ME/CFS by fixing intestinal dysbiosis, you would see some changes in the gut microbiome. However, maybe they did not analyze the gut flora sufficiently closely.



Furthermore, Dr Markov observes that after successful autovaccine treatment, the bacteria that were present in the urine disappear, indicating that the kidney dysbiosis has cleared:

When treating with bacterial autovaccines, regardless of the localization of the focus of chronic bacterial infection (in the nasopharynx, in the mouth, in the eyes, in the bronchi and / or in the lungs, in the genitourinary system, including in the kidneys - Nephrodysbacteriosis/CBIS or pyelonephritis) complete recovery was determined by 3 main criteria:

Clinical: the absence of complaints and objective symptoms of the disease, which were determined before the start of treatment

Microscopic: normalization of the general analysis of urine (in cases of its initial deviation from the norm)

Bacteriological: the absence of pathogenic and opportunistic flora in warm urine cultures (or from other concomitant foci, for example, in the nasopharynx with chronic staphylococcal infection, which is the main source of subsequent kidney infection).

So that is the evidence that we have which suggests a kidney rather than an intestinal source of bacteria endotoxins and exotoxins. But I don't think it rules out other sources. And Dr Markov seems to indicate in that above quote that dysbiosis in other areas like the nose are possible.

 

[Hip]

I say this because, if I understand autovaccines correctly, even if they work it doesn't necessarily indicate the problem is in the kidneys, it could just be working on bacterial dysbiosis elsewhere in the body, no?

The other thing I would like to know is how much reduction of LPS in the blood is there after autovaccine treatment. I wonder if Dr Markov measures LPS levels before and after autovaccine treatment?

Irrespective of the source of LPS, if autovaccines can permanently reduce LPS, then we would know they are doing something.

 

[Fogbuster]

Hey guys, really interesting thread. Thought it was worth sharing this article below on things to take that can reduce LPS levels.

Surely it might be worth buying a few of the things listed in the article to see if it can help reduce general symptoms? As well as eating a less calorie dense diet.

https://selfhacked.com/blog/reduce-lipopolysaccharides/

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Found this lab in Germany which tests for LPS https://www.ganzimmun.de/downloadcenter/?get_file=4317
My LBP is low so it's unlikely that it would help me but after what @Hip posted, who I have a lot of respect for, I'll recheck LPS and the inflammatory cascade.
It might not cure me, but hopefully others here!
Thanks hip!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

How about a poll in this thread asking whether you have been tested for the levels of LPS in the blood? I have and they were high.

Interesting. Then you might have a good chance.