Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hip]

Found this lab in Germany which tests for LPS https://www.ganzimmun.de/downloadcenter/?get_file=4317
My LBP is low so it's unlikely that it would help me but after what @Hip posted, who I have a lot of respect for, I'll recheck LPS and the inflammatory cascade.

Thanks, I guess I should get tested for LPS, to see if that might be an issue for me.

It could be that there is a subset of ME/CFS patients whose illness involves LPS, and if you are in that subset, then addressing the LPS with autovaccines and/or by other means might be fruitful.

Maybe the LPS comes from the kidneys, but there are likely other sources too.

Of course, we don't know which blood tests Dr Markov uses to confirm blood toxicity from nephrodysbacteriosis; LPS may not be the appropriate blood analyte.


Dr Markov claims a very high success rate in treating ME/CFS which involves nephrodysbacteriosis, but his autovaccine treatment may have no benefits for ME/CFS patients without nephrodysbacteriosis (well, he would not be able to treat those nephrodysbacteriosis-negative ME/CFS patients, because with no bacteria found in the kidneys, there's no way to make an autovaccine, unless you obtained bacteria from another area of the body).


Hard to say whether this autovaccine treatment will pan out for any of us. But what I find with any proffered theory of ME/CFS is that it prompts reading, research, and stimulates ideas. I've learnt quite a few new interesting things about LPS that I did not know before.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Thanks, I guess I should get tested for LPS, to see if that might be an issue for me.

I could be that there is a subset of ME/CFS patients whose illness involves LPS, and if you are in that subset, then addressing the LPS with autovaccines and/or by other means might be fruitful.

Maybe the LPS comes from the kidneys, but there are likely other sources too.

Dr Markov claims a very high success rate in treating ME/CFS which involves nephrodysbacteriosis, but his autovaccine treatment may have no benefits for ME/CFS patients without nephrodysbacteriosis (well, he would not be able to treat those nephrodysbacteriosis-negative ME/CFS patients, because with no bacteria found in the kidneys, there's no way to make an autovaccine, unless you obtained bacteria from another area of the body).

But what I find with any proffered theory of ME/CFS is that it prompts reading, research, and stimulates ideas. I've learnt quite a few new interesting things about LPS that I did not know before.

Yes! Dr. Markov's paper didn’t make any sense to me but with your further research it does!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Dear Perrier, till June 28, me, Dr.Oleg Markov, Communications&Moderator, is accessible urgently per direct Email: olegmarkovj7 [at] gmail [dot] com , thank you.

@ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS
Dr. Markov. My LBP is very low. Do you think that might have something to do with the group of 10% not responding to your treatment?
Thank you!

 

[hapl808]

What percentage of patients who present with supposed ME/CFS symptoms to Dr Markov are unable to be treated due to lack of bacteria to culture for the autovaccine?

 

[Dusankoa]

@Hip

This paper says that LPS from the first-pass metabolism is finally excreted through bile.

Could this relate to Bile Acid Malabsorption (BAM)? I was recently diagnosed with BAM and trying to find out if it somehow links to ME/CFS. I read somewhere that it is still not clear whether BAM is caused by excessive bile production or simply by insufficient absorption - the question is why is it being flushed out?

 

[Flnn]

So Dr Markov has not noticed any changes in the intestinal microbiome as a result of autovaccine treatment. And you would have thought that if autovaccines were working for ME/CFS by fixing intestinal dysbiosis, you would see some changes in the gut microbiome. However, maybe they did not analyze the gut flora sufficiently closely.

Do we know what procedure they used to test the gut microbiome? There can be a big difference in results based on the method that is being used...

 

[Alvin2]

It could be that there is a subset of ME/CFS patients whose illness involves LPS, and if you are in that subset, then addressing the LPS with autovaccines and/or by other means might be fruitful.

He claims about 95% cure rate so that subset is almost total if he is onto something.

Dr Markov claims a very high success rate in treating ME/CFS which involves nephrodysbacteriosis, but his autovaccine treatment may have no benefits for ME/CFS patients without nephrodysbacteriosis (well, he would not be able to treat those nephrodysbacteriosis-negative ME/CFS patients, because with no bacteria found in the kidneys, there's no way to make an autovaccine, unless you obtained bacteria from another area of the body).

Which would not work at 95% unless it is the real cause of ME/CFS.

I'm sure he means well but hubris is no match for ME/CFS.

 

[Hipsman]

@Hipsman found this post on a Russian ME/CFS forum of (presumably) an ME/CFS patient who reports Dr Markov's autovaccine treatment cured her.

Shoot, this patient did not have ME/CFS She said so in her introduction thread

The story of ElenaS: herpes 7 and TTV in the blood, temperature for 8 months, there is no CFS as such.

 

[Hip]

What percentage of patients who present with supposed ME/CFS symptoms to Dr Markov are unable to be treated due to lack of bacteria to culture for the autovaccine?

In an earlier post, Dr Markov said this:

Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome© (CBIS) is a new previously unknown disease/diagnosis that hides under the mask of ME/CFS in more than 95% cases of ME/CFS.

So that suggests that 5% of Dr Markov's ME/CFS patients do not have nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS, by his criteria for nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS (which involves finding bacteria in the urine, as well as some blood tests to demonstrate that bacteria toxins are getting into the blood).

Dr Markov is using the CDC Fukuda criteria for ME/CFS.

 

[Daffodil]

sorry to be so blunt but..why not just find a good poop donor and do fecal transplants?

i mean that is not an easy task in itself but....that would make a lot more sense to me

 

[hapl808]

In an earlier post, Dr Markov said this:


So that suggests that 5% of Dr Markov's ME/CFS patients do not have nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS, by his criteria for nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS (which involves finding bacteria in the urine, as well as some blood tests to demonstrate that bacteria toxins are getting into the blood).

Dr Markov is using the CDC Fukuda criteria for ME/CFS.

Yes, but that would be strange if people who present with self diagnosed ME/CFS, he diagnoses 100% of them through Fukuda, and then 95% have the bacteria?

This is one of the many issues with diseases like ME/CFS - if you develop a test, what are you testing against? If the Fukuda criteria were perfect at diagnosing, then we wouldn't need a lab test. Just a definitive lab test of ME/CFS would be a huge benefit to the community, research, etc.

 

[Hip]

he diagnoses 100% of them through Fukuda, and then 95% have the bacteria?

Yes, this is what Dr Markov says he finds. So in his clinic, 95% of the patients diagnosed with ME/CFS using the 1994 Fukuda criteria have CBIS. So Dr Markov believes that nearly all ME/CFS is caused by CBIS.

 

[Hip]

From one of Dr Markov's websites, I found this interesting:

In 90-100% of people all over the world, regularly throughout life, the mucous membranes of the genitourinary system and kidneys are autoinfected by enterobacteria and enterococci from their own intestines, by staphylococci and streptococci from the nasopharynx:

a) in about half of the cases, there is an almost complete physiological elimination of bacteria from the mucous membranes in the kidneys; in about 50-60% of clinically healthy infants and in 5-10% of healthy adults (with an anamnesis/disease history without often use of antibiotics) develops Nephrodysbacteriosis;

So Dr Markov says the sources of the kidney dysbiosis infection are bacteria from the intestines, and bacteria from the nasopharynx. The nasopharynx is the area just above your the back of your throat.

I was not aware that Staphylococcus and Streptococcus inhabit the nasopharynx, but a quick Google shows they are often found there.

 

[hb8847]

sorry to be so blunt but..why not just find a good poop donor and do fecal transplants?

i mean that is not an easy task in itself but....that would make a lot more sense to me

How would a fecal transplant fix dysbiosis of the kidneys?

 

[Perfson]

Sorry for scepticism.
Dr. Markov is using Fukuda 1994 criteria, which means that PEM is not mandatory for diagnosis. Since there is no biomarker at this moment, people and doctors tend to tell that PEM is unique thing in ME/CFS, and if you don't have PEM, then you still may have ME, but also with much higher chance you simple might have other issues, like testosterone deficiency (guess it's mostly male issue) - one of 10 possible examples.
The only thing that would make it fine, in my eyes, is only if he tested all patients on all other issues like hormonal/vitamin deficiencies, celiac disease, mold issue, adrenal issues, other known infections, and other blood tests. Basically make ME/CFS diagnosis of exclusion.
And as far as i know, @Hipsman is going to be our tester, and he'll try this treatment and we'll know the results in few months, probably. I talked to Hipsman and i think he is one of the people that has no PEM at all (at least physical). Which means he would also get ME/CFS diagnosis only using Fukuda criteria and not International/Canadian one. Obviously, im not trying to tell that he has no ME/CFS or something. But i know stories of people believing that have ME/CFS for 20 years, but then they did some more tests and found out that they actually had some underlying health problem, all this time.
It's all fine if we assume that PEM for ME/CFS is not mandatory indeed. But i guess we can't know this for sure yet?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Sorry for scepticism.
Dr. Markov is using Fukuda 1994 criteria, which means that PEM is not mandatory for diagnosis. Since there is no biomarker at this moment, people and doctors tend to tell that PEM is unique thing in ME/CFS, and if you don't have PEM, then you still may have ME, but also with much higher chance you simple might have other issues, like testosterone deficiency (guess it's mostly male issue) - one of 10 possible examples.
The only thing that would make it fine, in my eyes, is only if he tested all patients on all other issues like hormonal/vitamin deficiencies, celiac disease, mold issue, adrenal issues, other known infections, and other blood tests. Basically make ME/CFS diagnosis of exclusion.
And as far as i know, @Hipsman is going to be our tester, and he'll try this treatment and we'll know the results in few months, probably. I talked to Hipsman and i think he is one of the people that has no PEM at all (at least physical). Which means he would also get ME/CFS diagnosis only using Fukuda criteria and not International/Canadian one. Obviously, im not trying to tell that he has no ME/CFS or something. But i know stories of people believing that have ME/CFS for 20 years, but then they did some more tests and found out that they actually had some underlying health problem, all this time.
It's all fine if we assume that PEM for ME/CFS is not mandatory indeed. But i guess we can't know this for sure yet?

That's why I always motivate people to go to a good university hospital and stay there until they excluded everything and the rarest diseases
BTW: Fukuda includes PEM but as an additional symptom (that's where the critique of it is based on ) see attached pic.
But if @Hipsman doesn't get PEM the outcome would not tell us much. Idk, @Hipsman ?

 

[Hipsman]

I talked to Hipsman and i think he is one of the people that has no PEM at all (at least physical)

I get PEM, but it's more mental then physical, in PEM I can't concentrate at all, can't watch videos or read anything that requires a bit of thinking, but it doesn't last more than a day and usually comes few hours (sometimes on the next day) after overexertion is ended, not few days like in other people.

I'm not sure how to define physical PEM, at my worst, when I was moderate, I couldn't go out every day, I would go one day for a walk, and the next day I wouldn't go out

 

[Hipsman]

If I didn't have PEM I wouldn't be here, every time I tried pushing myself over what's comfortable at the beginning of my illness, it would backfire and I would end up a bit worse at baseline!

 

[hb8847]

One thing I'm a bit confused about - why would you need repeated vaccines for the treatment to work? Surely if the body's immune system is being trained to recognise a particular bacteria as a threat then it wouldn't forget it? Is the idea the bacteria mutate, or that different strains arise in its place?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

If I didn't have PEM I wouldn't be here, every time I tried pushing myself over what's comfortable at the beginning of my illness, it would backfire and I would end up a bit worse at baseline!

Then you have ME, no doubt! Happy to support you in Kiev