So I have recently had some success using Mutaflor (e. coli). And since I've read on Lassesen's blog that E. Coli and CB antagonizes each other that leaves me a bit bewildered. Would taking one necessarily decrease the other? Is it possible to increase both of them, if taken at different times? How about if both species are low? Perhaps
@alicec has something to say about this?
I don't know much about this.
I've done a quick google to see what is known and what Lassesen's statement is based on.
He quotes Miyarison who in turn just give a single sentence report about
in vitro experiments where
C. butyricum and 20
E.coli strains were grown together in dishes; growth of all strains was inhibited.
I found other studies such as
this one which looked at just one nasty
E. coli strain. Co-culture
in vitro again inhibited growth. It seems that the butyric and lactic acid produced by
C. butyricum might have been responsible, so presumably other butyrate producers would have the same effect.
They also showed that
C. butyricum inhibited the adhesion of the
E. coli strain to a gut epithelial cell line
in vitro. Finally they showed that pretreatment of mice with
C. butyricum protected them from subsequent
E. coli infection; post-treatment diminished lethality.
A similar
in vivo experiment was done in chickens.
So
C. butyricum certainly seems able to directly affect growth of at least some
E. coli strains and its presence can prevent or diminish establishment of serious
E. coli infections - in mice and chickens at least.
I guess we need to distinguish between the normal to and fro that goes on all the time in the gut (many species are antagonistic to others - they keep each other in check) and the situation where the gut is exposed to a large amount of a single species, either via a supplement or via an infection.
In the former case, all we can do is let the gut work it out for itself - this is its normal function.
In the latter, it would seem prudent not to take
C. butyricum and
E.coli supplements at the same time. If both seem beneficial then I guess alternating makes sense.
I don't really know if either of these probiotics substantially alter the gut flora or whether like most probiotics they exert their effects as they transit through the gut (yes I know they are human gut species, but do they actually colonise when given orally?). Assuming that they do, how the gut chooses to balance the two is impossible to predict and I agree, a bit mind-boggling.
They only way to know I guess would be to do a series of gut DNA tests before, during and after the probiotics. Unfortunately I'm fairly sure that for both
Clostridium and
Escherichia, the 16S DNA sequencing technique used by uBiome and American Gut is unable to reliably distinguish species/strains so it might not be terribly helpful.
an analysis of my gut bacteria would be far from normal.
