Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Hip]

I’m pretty sure progesterone was the tipping point.

It's quite common for ME/CFS patients to improve substantially during pregnancy, in which levels of progesterone and estriol are greatly increased. But perhaps your increase in progesterone without increasing estrogens may have caused some imbalance?

I have had good results from using 0.3 mg of estriol transdermally; I find this boosts mood, counters irritability, and generally chills me out. Unfortunately I can only use this occasionally, as for guys daily use for many months would begin to have feminization effects.

 

[tango]

It's quite common for ME/CFS patients to improve substantially during pregnancy, in which levels of progesterone and estriol are greatly increased. But perhaps your increase in progesterone without increasing estrogens may have caused some imbalance?

I have had good results from using 0.3 mg of estriol transdermally; I find this boosts mood, counters irritability, and generally chills me out. Unfortunately I can only use this occasionally, as for guys daily use for many months would begin to have feminization effects.

Do you know if you have PEMT mutations?

I have the same experience with estriol and estradiol. It is a significant mood booster, helps relieve pain and fatigue and is calming. I am sure the PEMT and issues making SAMe and phosphatidylcholine are related to the positive results from estrogen

The effects of pregnancy are well known as helpful for ME and my ME doctor did try me on HRT which was awful. Then I went to a hormone doctor and she tried me first on estriol and when that was a success on BHRT. But then she gave me a ratio of 4:1 P:E and that was a disaster.

I likely have progesterone intolerance and as one report says it has a biphasic effect she was convinced that a high dose would be fine. It completely screwed me. I only take E now but I have to ration it as it can cause a lot of issues with cancer and thickening of the uterus.

Have you tried pregnenolone or DHEA as a route to getting estrogen? Or soy? Soy isoflavones are also mentioned as helping with microglial activation issues so it could be useful to try. I did get some minor relief from soy and black cohosh

 

[Hip]

Do you know if you have PEMT mutations?

I have not herd of PEMT, so don't know if I have any mutations there.

I've tried DHEA, pregnenolone and soy isoflavones (genistein). Genistein I find has similar effects to estriol. I read that transdermal estriol has a lower cancer risk than oral estriol.

 

[tango]

I have not herd of PEMT, so don't know if I have any mutations there.

I've tried DHEA, pregnenolone and soy isoflavones (genistein). Genistein I find has similar effects to estriol. I read that transdermal estriol has a lower cancer risk than oral estriol.

I'm not aware of any difference in cancer risk between transdermal and oral, only that estrone is the bad estrogen and of course it depends how your body metabolises it.

If you have done 23andme you can check your MAT1A and PEMT mutations using Livewello

 

[Hip]

I'm not aware of any difference in cancer risk between transdermal and oral

I read it here:

Fear of cancer prevents many women from restoring youthful hormone levels. When applied through the topical (transdermal) route, estriol is not associated with increased cancer risk.

 

[tango]

The natural folks will tell you that bioidentical hormones aren't associated with a cancer risk.

My doctor told me that the latest research is that the risk of estrogen related cancer from HRT is now thought to be overstated and that it's much safer than previously thought. I'm guessing that you don't have a uterus(!) so that may further lower your risk. Have you looked into your copper/zinc ratio to see if you can tweak that to help your estrogen status? Phos choline might help you if you can tolerate that

 

[miyarisan for the win]

Traditional Chinese Medicine, one that is a known Anti-viral. It also includes Licorice to help raise blood pressure.

Ohh, CBD oil has improved the quality of my sleep and reduced brainfog significantly. I think it may be responsible for improvements in nerve function. My signature improved with it, as well as my eyesight.

That was my issue. A few weeks into miyarisan i have started to have some blood pressure issues. Like today for example I feel very fatigued and feel as if my blood pressure is high. I woke up to 2 bowel movements which never happens. I think that threw things off. I have since taken some electrolytes and eaten a meal but still feel a little bit nauseaus. I'm going to look into licorice because as it is my blood pressure is low so with miyarisan its been getting lower.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I'm going to look into licorice because as it is my blood pressure is low so with miyarisan its been getting lower.

I've gotten improvements with Orthostatic Intolerance using Miyarisan. It took about six months though. Of course, I'm still taking the licorice daily.

I've stopped monitoring my blood pressure since I'm not feeling so faint, but my Doctor checks it regularly for any indications of licorice raising it too much.

 

[nanonug]

I've started Miyarisan today at 6 capsules/day. I'm doing it because of this: Inflammation increases pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase 4 (PDK4) expression via the JNK pathway.

 

[Judee]

Well, I read beginning to end on this thread although with some of the more biologically technical stuff I may have been skimming. I have some on order...though I should have finished reading and asked my questions first before doing so. Right now it's a bit of half a dozen of one to six of the other. Some people got positive reactions; others not so much.

@Hip you mentioned on another thread about Oxymatrine and how people with autoimmune in their family genetics should avoid it at Dr Chia's recommendations. Some of the mechanisms of this product seem similar--like it's an immunomodulator maybe. Do you (or anyone) know of any similar warnings for using CB for those with autoimmune? (I may have Hashimoto's but doctor wants to monitor my high titers before giving that diagnosis.)

Also I'm unclear on whether this increases acetycholine, serotonin, gaba, etc or decreases them. I know in the past when I tried choline or gaba, within minutes I got a very weird sensation like someone was lowering a helmet over my head. It brought on a horrible sleepy brain fog state that lasted for several days so I'm not sure if CB would do something similar to me. I noticed a lot of people saying their brain fog got better but lots of things people say that about, make my brain fog worse.

Judee

 

[Hip]

Do you (or anyone) know of any similar warnings for using CB for those with autoimmune?

I have not come across any such warnings about Clostridium butyricum.

 

[Hazeleyes99]

Hi all, just wanted to add my experience with Miyarisan.

6 tablets a day fpr about 3-4 weeks, and I was experiencing pain behind eye and other sinus symptoms. Some general "weird" feelings. Did not aid in greatly increasing BM quality, but did slow me dowm a little bit, which is welcomed. I got inflammation in my left eye which was reminiscent of a re occuring sinus issue I had over the last year. Felt like there was a speck of dirt in there for a week, almost.

I worked up to the 18 tablets a day, and the sinus issues are gone, I feel like some latent low grade chronic issue there is cleared. No more eye troubles, my gut issues are better, less pain, less food intolerance, more normal BMs. I still have my issues but doing better. Hard to attribute everything to the probiotic but it has played a part.

Question: I am running low and want to wait until fall cooler times to reorder, I know it is shelf stable but would rather not eisk degrading it.

I notice earlier poster made yogurt. Can i concievably extend my Miyarisan supply by lowering pill dosage and then making yogurt with this? Is that a good idea?

 

[Wonkmonk]

I haven't read all the 65 pages here, so sorry if it has been discussed already, but could it also be that more butyrate (e.g. from C. butyricum) is bad if you have CFS because butyrate induces herpes virus reactivation?

I made a thread for this topic here:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...e-react-negatively-to-fiber-probiotics.60291/

I think in healthy people, butyrate may have lots of benefits, but maybe not in herpes-virus-induced CFS.

I also saw @Hip's earlier post that butyrate might fight intracellular infection, so there may be countervailing effects.

 

[Chiron]

Just thought I'd chime in with my experience. I started c. butyricum MIYARISAN 270mg about 4 days ago. I started with 1 tab twice daily and I've worked my way up to two tabs three times daily. My stools have become more solid (from diarrhea) but there is increased bleeding. (I have ulcerative colitis.) I believe a herx is in progress. The other symptom that is cluing me into this is that I have SO much gas. Seriously it's embarrassing, but I take it as a good sign that something is being processed.

I'm concerned about the above post and herpes reactivation. I have CMV which may be in my bowels (unconfirmed) and if more butyrate can activate it, then I need to be very careful.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

My stools have become more solid (from diarrhea) but there is increased bleeding. (I have ulcerative colitis.)

Miyarisan has a beneficial effect on the intestinal walls, but IIRC, it can also be an irritant to damaged cells. It does reduce the transit time for the gut, in such a short time perhaps that could account for the increase in visible bleeding?

 

[Chiron]

Miyarisan has a beneficial effect on the intestinal walls, but IIRC, it can also be an irritant to damaged cells. It does reduce the transit time for the gut, in such a short time perhaps that could account for the increase in visible bleeding?

What I wrote in my last post has changed. I have increased bleeding, frequency, and stools are no longer so solid. I am cutting back on the dose and if things don't get better I'm stopping. I had this happen with other spore based probiotics I took before. I find them much stronger than non-spore ones. Also you're right in that maybe I need to wait until my inflammation is more under control to pursue this kind of probiotic.

 

[patient.journey]

I want to get this product but there are different sellers on ebay which seems to be individuals !

Did any one tried any one on specific?

Regards

 

[Chiron]

Just an update... MIYARISAN increased my flare symptoms a lot. I stopped taking it over a week ago but I am still symptomatic. Taking it was a big mistake!

I think I need to avoid probiotics in general while I still have active inflammation, but that's just me. Plus this is a spore probiotic and they tend to be more hardcore.

I want to get this product but there are different sellers on ebay which seems to be individuals !

Did any one tried any one on specific?

Regards

MIYARISAN is so common in Japan that it would be unreasonable for someone to fake the product. Just look at the seller ratings... if they have thousands of ratings and they're all positive, then chances are you are getting a real product. The only thing you might want to figure out is how long it'll take to get to you. The seller I went with was legit but it took over a month for the product to arrive and there was very poor communication in the mean time.

 

[Wonkmonk]

It seems to be available on amazon, too (but don't know if that necessarily means the seller is more trustworthy).

https://www.amazon.com/miyarisan-tablets/s?page=1&rh=i:aps,k:miyarisan tablets

The price is ~$30 for 90 capsules, so faking it would probably be lucrative. I'd say for the risk of fakes being sold, it is less likely if the product is common than if the product is high-margin/high-price. You can make a handsome profit by selling a few capsules of rice powder for $30.

But of course, that doesn't mean there are lots of fakes on eBay and I agree the seller-rating is very important. Just wanted to point out the incentive to fake a product isn't necessarily related to the product bein common or not.

 

[patient.journey]

Just an update... MIYARISAN increased my flare symptoms a lot. I stopped taking it over a week ago but I am still symptomatic. Taking it was a big mistake!

I think I need to avoid probiotics in general while I still have active inflammation, but that's just me. Plus this is a spore probiotic and they tend to be more hardcore.



MIYARISAN is so common in Japan that it would be unreasonable for someone to fake the product. Just look at the seller ratings... if they have thousands of ratings and they're all positive, then chances are you are getting a real product. The only thing you might want to figure out is how long it'll take to get to you. The seller I went with was legit but it took over a month for the product to arrive and there was very poor communication in the mean time.

Made an order of a seller with multi products and high sales , but it seems it will take a month too