Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Hip]

I also have come up a 1 level improvement from the probiotics alone.

That's quite amazing, @tango, that you have done so well. I have not previously come across anyone that made such large improvements from probiotics.

Although Clostridium butyricum does seem to be a special probiotic (I take it you are using AOR Probiotic-3, which contains Clostridium butyricum).

I tried Miyarisan myself, but did not really experience any benefit. Perhaps I'll give AOR Probiotic-3 a go. Although it is not cheap, I notice, at around £50 a jar of 90 capsules.

 

[tango]

That's quite amazing, @tango, that you have done so well. I have not previously come across anyone that made such large improvements from probiotics.

Although Clostridium butyricum does seem to be a special probiotic (I take it you are using AOR Probiotic-3, which contains Clostridium butyricum).

I tried Miyarisan myself, but did not really experience any benefit. Perhaps I'll give AOR Probiotic-3 a go. Although it is not cheap, I notice, at around £50 a jar of 90 capsules.

Definitely AOR Probiotic-3 but as I said, it was the old formulation. I don't know if I have levelled off or if the new formulation isn't quite as good at producing favourable bacteria or if something else is going on.

I still have old Miyarisan tablets kicking around. If anything I felt a bit agitated on the Miyarisan. AOR was good for mood, energy and overall well-being.

I also tried eating a lot of butter for the butyrate portion of the equation! That worked for a while and then I reached a tipping point where something went wrong so I am back on the probiotic-3
I buy it from iherb but it's cheaper on amazon.com

 

[Hip]

Definitely AOR Probiotic-3 but as I said, it was the old formulation. I don't know if I have levelled off or if the new formulation isn't quite as good at producing favourable bacteria or if something else is going on.

From what I have read on these forums, the effects of probiotics in ME/CFS patients can change over time. Some people report that at once stage probiotics were helpful for their ME/CFS, but then 5 or 10 years later, they find they cannot take probiotics at all, because it worsens their ME/CFS.

So the effects of probiotics on ME/CFS seem quite variable over time.

The old formulation of AOR Probiotic-3 from 2013 you can see here, and the current formulation here. I've coped the ingredients below. As you can see, the main changes are the replacement of Enterococcus faecium with Streptococcus faecalis, and the replacement of Bacillus subtilis with Bacillus mesentericus.

But the Clostridium butyricum in the AOR Probiotic-3 remains the same, except that there is a little less of it in the new formulation.

So maybe that made a difference to the effects you experienced.

AOR Probiotic-3 Old Formulation:
Streptococcus faecalis T-110 15,000,000 Organisms
Clostridium butyricum TO-A 500,000 Organisms
Bacillus mesentericus TO-A 500,000 Organisms

AOR Probiotic-3 New Formulation:
Enterococcus faecium T-110 18 million CFU
Clostridium butyricum TO-A 0.6 million CFU
Bacillus subtilis TO-A 0.6 million CFU

I also tried eating a lot of butter for the butyrate portion of the equation! That worked for a while and then I reached a tipping point where something went wrong so I am back on the probiotic-3

A cunning plan! I had the same thought myself about eating lots of butter for the butyrate.

This study found that butyrate from Clostridium butyricum down-regulated the expression of TLR4 in the colon. TLR4 is the same receptor that low-dose naltrexone blocks, so the benefits of Clostridium butyricum for ME/CFS may come from the same TLR4 mechanism.

Butyrate is absorbed in the small intestine though, 1 so will not reach the colon in high concentration. Whereas Clostridium butyricum lives in the colon, so delivers the butyrate into the colon. Maybe that makes a difference.


Interestingly enough, two other supplements that down-regulate TLR4 are oxymatrine and hyaluronic acid. We know that oxymatrine is often effective for ME/CFS; but hyaluronic acid is broken down by the stomach acid, and so not much enters the circulation, thus oral hyaluronic acid may not help.

I did at one point try transdermal hyaluronic acid, but did not notice much. However, I am a non-responder to Clostridium butyricum, oxymatrine and LDN, so I am not the best person to try hyaluronic acid.

 

[nanonug]

I'm not in the mood to go through 64 pages of comments to see if this has been discussed. Here's my question: is there any benefit in ingesting something like Clostridium butyricum instead of going straight to supplementing with sodium butyrate?

 

[Hip]

I'm not in the mood to go through 64 pages of comments to see if this has been discussed. Here's my question: is there any benefit in ingesting something like Clostridium butyricum instead of going straight to supplementing with sodium butyrate?

This is just the Clostridium butyricum summary thread! The full thread is this one, where I believe the major improvements that Clostridium butyricum leads to in some ME/CFS patients was first discovered.

I am not sure how many people have experimented with butyrate as a supplement, but quite a few (including me) tried Clostridium butyricum. I could not find any details about how much butyrate is synthesized each day by gut bacteria (though someone here reckons 14,000 mg a day, but does not provide a reference).

Obviously if supplementing, you would need to take significantly more than you normally synthesize, otherwise you are not going to notice much.

 

[tango]

From what I have read on these forums, the effects of probiotics in ME/CFS patients can change over time. Some people report that at once stage probiotics were helpful for their ME/CFS, but then 5 or 10 years later, they find they cannot take probiotics at all, because it worsens their ME/CFS.

So the effects of probiotics on ME/CFS seem quite variable over time.

The old formulation of AOR Probiotic-3 from 2013 you can see here, and the current formulation here. I've coped the ingredients below. As you can see, the main changes are the replacement of Enterococcus faecium with Streptococcus faecalis, and the replacement of Bacillus subtilis with Bacillus mesentericus.

But the Clostridium butyricum in the AOR Probiotic-3 remains the same, except that there is a little less of it in the new formulation.

So maybe that made a difference to the effects you experienced.

A cunning plan! I had the same thought myself about eating lots of butter for the butyrate.

This study found that butyrate from Clostridium butyricum down-regulated the expression of TLR4 in the colon. TLR4 is the same receptor that low-dose naltrexone blocks, so the benefits of Clostridium butyricum for ME/CFS may come from the same TLR4 mechanism.

Butyrate is absorbed in the small intestine though, 1 so will not reach the colon in high concentration. Whereas Clostridium butyricum lives in the colon, so delivers the butyrate into the colon. Maybe that makes a difference.


Interestingly enough, two other supplements that down-regulate TLR4 are oxymatrine and hyaluronic acid. We know that oxymatrine is often effective for ME/CFS; but hyaluronic acid is broken down by the stomach acid, and so not much enters the circulation, thus oral hyaluronic acid may not help.

I did at one point try transdermal hyaluronic acid, but did not notice much. However, I am a non-responder to Clostridium butyricum, oxymatrine and LDN, so I am not the best person to try hyaluronic acid.

Right, I looked into hyaluronic acid after reading the thread "Chronic Microglial Activation in ME/CFS, And Its Possible Treatment Using Microglial Inhibitors". I had high hopes as hyaluronic fortuitously is good for skin and I was hopeful that I would get a double whammy. Unfortunately, I had some bad side-effects. I can't quite remember the details (brain fog) but it made me pee a lot (something I am prone to anyway) and I found it keeping me awake. It did seem to perk me up but the additional peeing and hyper brain at night were intolerable. Maybe if I took a half dose in the morning.

Did you make your own transdermal hyaluronic or have tips for making your own transdermal supplements?

TLR4 is something I am not really familiar with.

Somewhere I found a blog post where someone broke down the differences between the old and new AOR and concluded that there wasn't likely to be a significant difference in effect but there is. The old one I tended to constipation and the new one I tend the other way. Bacillus subtilis does tend to make me go so that may account for the extra bowel movements.

I am a non-responder. The only things that have helped me are thiamine, l-tyrosine, l-lysine, the old AOR probiotic and NT Factor. At one stage curucmin phytosomes were helpful, not so much now. I feel like I have tried every probiotic, every supplement, every medication (except LDN and CBD) and every alternative treatment (other than neural retraining). Any improvement is fantastic but I am a long way from where I want to be and doctors have an annoying habit of giving me things that create new symptoms that I then have to try and fix. Grrrr!

 

[Hip]

Any improvement is fantastic but I am a long way from where I want to be

Where are you now on the on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate and severe, and where were you before you started the probiotic?

Did you make your own transdermal hyaluronic or have tips for making your own transdermal supplements?

If I remember correctly, I bought some hyaluronic acid powder, and applied around 500 mg directly to the skin of my body like talc powder, adding a few drops of water to help it sink in. I also would pre-dissolve the hyaluronic acid in water, and then apply that to the skin (you have to use cold water, not hot).

I feel like I have tried every probiotic, every supplement, every medication (except LDN and CBD)

Have you tried Valtrex, Valcyte, tenofovir, GcMAF, oxymatrine? Those are all often capable of producing a 1 level improvement on the mild, moderate and severe scale.

 

[Hip]

TLR4 is something I am not really familiar with.

Toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) is a receptor found on cells. When TLR4 is activated (typically by LPS from bacteria) it leads to immune activation / inflammation.

One study found that enterovirus infection increases TLR4 expression (increases the amount of TLR4 receptors), which may then worsen inflammation.

So supplements or drugs which can reduce TLR4 activation or reduce TLR4 expression may have a beneficial anti-inflammatory effect.

As mentioned, butyrate from Clostridium butyricum, oxymatrine and low-dose naltrexone all reduce TLR4 activation or expression.

Another supplement that inhibits TLR4 is cinnamon: the cinnamaldehyde found in cinnamon inhibits the TLR4 pathway.

 

[nanonug]

This is just the Clostridium butyricum summary thread! The full thread is this one

LOL

Obviously if supplementing, you would need to take significantly more than you normally synthesize, otherwise you are not going to notice much.

In the next few days I'm going to start nuking the gut bacteria with rifaximin (550mg TID for 15 days) and after that I'll start Miyarisan at 9 caps/day (this is the correct dosage, right?) My main interest is to see what kind of effect I'll get in terms of IBS-D but I'll be on the lookout for extra-intestinal effects as well. I'll post my experience afterwords.

Thanks, @Hip

 

[vaer]

Definitely AOR Probiotic-3 but as I said, it was the old formulatio

The old formulation of AOR Probiotic-3 from 2013 you can see here, and the current formulation here. I've coped the ingredients below. As you can see, the main changes are the replacement of Enterococcus faecium with Streptococcus faecalis, and the replacement of Bacillus subtilis with Bacillus mesentericus.

But the Clostridium butyricum in the AOR Probiotic-3 remains the same, except that there is a little less of it in the new formulation.

So maybe that made a difference to the effects you experienced.

 

[Hip]

I should mention that when I was looking into the biochemistry of butyrate, I found a potential mechanism by which butyrate might fight the intracellular viral infections in ME/CFS.

This is because butyrate is a potent inducer of cathelicidin inside the cell; cathelicidin in turn enables TLR3 to respond to the presence of viral dsRNA in the cell; and when TLR3 detects dsRNA, it turns on the intracellular immune response by releasing interferon.

So in this way, possibly butyrate may have antiviral effects against chronic intracellular infections. Other cathelicidin inducers include Benicar (the drug used in the Marshall Protocol to activate the intracellular immune response), and the bile salt ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA).

 

[ljimbo423]

In the next few days I'm going to start nuking the gut bacteria with rifaximin (550mg TID for 15 days)

I took 2 courses of Rifaximin about a year ago and have been consistently treating dysbiosis and leaky gut since. I have gone from a 3 on the bell scale to a 5-5.5. My energy and quality of life have at least doubled.

A huge bonus from the rifaximin is that it stopped the massive panic attacks that I had been getting for many, many years! That was something I didn't expect. I thought I might get some reduction in anxiety but to stop my panic attacks was a very big deal.

There is no doubt in my mind that dysbiosis and leaky gut can cause extremely debilitating symptoms. Fatigue, brain fog, flu-like symptoms and anxiety, are just a few. Good luck with the rifaximin!!

Jim

 

[tango]

View attachment 26448

That's interesting that the manufacturer say this is the same formulation with updated names. This is definitely not true.

The old formulation caused constipation. The new one causes rapid bowel movements. I literally took the old formula one day and the new the next and the change was instant and obvious. I managed to score some of the old probiotic and again it slowed down movements. Went back to the new probiotic and things were moving waaaaay too fast.

 

[tango]

Toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) is a receptor found on cells. When TLR4 is activated (typically by LPS from bacteria) it leads to immune activation / inflammation.

One study found that enterovirus infection increases TLR4 expression (increases the amount of TLR4 receptors), which may then worsen inflammation.

So supplements or drugs which can reduce TLR4 activation or reduce TLR4 expression may have a beneficial anti-inflammatory effect.

As mentioned, butyrate from Clostridium butyricum, oxymatrine and low-dose naltrexone all reduce TLR4 activation or expression.

Another supplement that inhibits TLR4 is cinnamon: the cinnamaldehyde found in cinnamon inhibits the TLR4 pathway.

Aha! I quite like cinnamon and have a tincture I have used from time to time.

I found activated charcoal helpful at one stage and I wondered if it was mopping up LPS

 

[tango]

Where are you now on the on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate and severe, and where were you before you started the probiotic?

Moderate to moderate - just different places on the scale.

I peaked at mild and then a doctor totally screwed up and I went from mild to severe postural hypotension and things went to crap after that.

If I remember correctly, I bought some hyaluronic acid powder, and applied around 500 mg directly to the skin of my body to talc powder, adding a few drops of water to help it sink in. I also would pre-dissolve the hyaluronic acid in water, and then apply that to the skin (you have to use cold water, not hot).

Thanks. That sounds pretty straight forward but I'm not sure I would want to put talc on my skin!

Have you tried Valtrex, Valcyte, tenofovir, GcMAF, oxymatrine? Those are all often capable of producing a 1 level improvement on the mild, moderate and severe scale.

I've tried GcMAF with no improvement.

My Chronic fatigue syndrome doctor didn't recommend any of those antivirals.

My biggest issue is the non-refreshing sleep. I feel happier and have more energy and strength on the rare occasions that I sleep well. It's been a few years since that happened. For a brief period seroquel helped my sleep but after a few days my body adapted and it had no effect at all

 

[tango]

There is no doubt in my mind that dysbiosis and leaky gut can cause extremely debilitating symptoms. Fatigue, brain fog, flu-like symptoms and anxiety, are just a few.
Jim

That's the conclusion I came to after the AOR helped me. I have tried lots of elimination diets but they failed to produce the same results and taking a pill is a lot easier!

I am probably going to try keto at some stage but I'm not wildly enthusiastic. Hope is kind of on the low side because I've tried so many diets that didn't help and in some cases made things worse but after reading the posts on here about DDW I thought I should maybe try it. I really like carbs so giving them up to this extent and pushing lots of fats is challenging for my body

 

[Hip]

Moderate to moderate - just different places on the scale.

A 1-level increase on the scale is where, for example, you go from moderate to mild. If you stayed within moderate, then you might perhaps call it a ½-level increase.

 

[tango]

A 1-level increase on the scale is where, for example, you go from moderate to mild. If you stayed within moderate, then you might perhaps call it a ½-level increase.

I mentioned I peaked briefly (a month to 6 weeks?) at mild but then damage was done by a doctor and I regressed so it was a 1 level improvement but now I am at the low end of moderate after being right at the top of moderate and on the cusp of severe. There are so many scales anyway!!! However, for me to have a sustained improvement for a month or more is pretty incredible. I curse that doctor that set my progress back and am still trying to biohack my way out of that

 

[Hip]

damage was done by a doctor

What did the doctor do to cause a worsening of your ME/CFS?

There are so many scales anyway!!!

There are quite a few scales, but for me I find the scale of mild (able to work) – moderate (housebound) – severe (mostly bedbound) easy to relate to. It's quite brain fog-proof!

 

[tango]

What did the doctor do to cause a worsening of your ME/CFS?

Multiple medications at the same time. I did try to phase them in but I should have listened to my intuition and only taken one for a month. Instead I added each one a week apart

• T3
• Secretropin
• DHEA
• Pregnenolone
• Florinef
• Progesterone

I’m pretty sure progesterone was the tipping point. That’s when everything went haywire. I have a lot of PEMT and MAT1A genes and PEMT needs estrogen to speed it up. After progesterone my estrogen tested as non-existent and I haven’t successfully restored my system. Extreme brain fog, worse sleep, more pain, more mood issues, less stamina and strength

The doctor tried me on estrogen only but I think the damage was done. I got some relief but it didn’t get me back to the starting point. Secretropin was nasty too but I stopped that after a week. DHEA was great but I can be longer tolerate it as the progesterone has changed something. Probably locked on to other receptors which are blocking my recovery.