Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[outdamnspot]

Is anyone still experimenting? I'm up to 4 tabs before bed at the moment. I find it tolerable -- nothing that correlates with my general experiences of 'herxing' or 'die-off'. No changes in stool appearance.

Worst symptom at the moment is apathy. I'm calmer, but overwhelmingly flat/bored/disconnected from everything. I read Ken say Miyarisan can lower noradrenaline, so wonder if that might be why, or if this is a transient reaction. Guess I'll keep going.

 

[MAF14]

Is anyone still experimenting? I'm up to 4 tabs before bed at the moment. I find it tolerable -- nothing that correlates with my general experiences of 'herxing' or 'die-off'. No changes in stool appearance.

Worst symptom at the moment is apathy. I'm calmer, but overwhelmingly flat/bored/disconnected from everything. I read Ken say Miyarisan can lower noradrenaline, so wonder if that might be why, or if this is a transient reaction. Guess I'll keep going.

I'm still popping CB's... Also made some yogurt with them and some other probiotics.

Can't say I've noticed much more than a good amount of gas and more frequent BM's.

 

[mono]

I'm still popping CB's... Also made some yogurt with them and some other probiotics.

Can't say I've noticed much more than a good amount of gas and more frequent BM's.

How did you make yogurt?

 

[outdamnspot]

Interestingly, my typically-coated tongue has cleared up pretty much completely on Miyarisan. Still feel like I'm in too much of a parasympathetic state, i.e. oversleeping, too calm/lazy etc. I remember someone saying that treatments that worked for them would sometimes activate a 'deep parasympathetic' state, and it would generally take the body some time to level out; I've been stuck in fight-flight mode for months on end, so perhaps things will eventually work themselves out.

 

[MAF14]

How did you make yogurt?

Crushed them up and added them to a yogurt maker with some NOW Foods probiotics.

I'm gonna try today using almond milk... Last time was a failure so we'll see.

 

[outdamnspot]

This probably isn't an easy question to answer, but does anyone know if it's possible for immune changes provoked by Miyarisan to manifest almost solely as mood changes?

I kept raising my dose because I would get obvious flu-like symptoms each time, but these disappear after a day or two. I take 4 tablets before bed now, and some symptoms have improved (no more white tongue, less aggression), but I feel sad, foggy and apathetic.

It's frustrating because usually herxes/die-offs are very physical for me, but with Miyarisan I don't even really have any GI changes, so I can't tell if I'm on the right track.

I'm wondering if I should lower the dose, or just keep going for now.

 

[Gondwanaland]

ut I feel sad, foggy and apathetic.

IME this probiotic lowers histamine too much. Histamine is a neurotransmitter, right?

 

[outdamnspot]

IME this probiotic lowers histamine too much. Histamine is a neurotransmitter, right?

Yeah, it's an excitatory neurotransmitter. Anyway, I guess that makes sense, given how calm I feel, and how my sleep has improved. How do you know it lowers histamine, by the way?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Yeah, it's an excitatory neurotransmitter. Anyway, I guess that makes sense, given how calm I feel, and how my sleep has improved. How do you know it lowers histamine, by the way?

I get low histamine symptoms. Worsened gut motility, feeling flat emotionally, can't get out of bed in the morning etc

 

[outdamnspot]

I get low histamine symptoms. Worsened gut motility, feeling flat emotionally, can't get out of bed in the morning etc

Interesting. Can I ask what dose you were on and for how long? I have all the same symptoms (including low gut motility and unable to get out of bed lately). I'm trained by the 'high histamine/undermethylator' thing to always think histamine is bad. As I said, Miyarisan has had a very strong effect on my anxiety, and I wonder if I should try cutting back to just 1 or 2 tablets.

Have you been able to take other probiotics without the low-histamine symptoms?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting. Can I ask what dose you were on and for how long?

I took 1 pill 1x or 2x and the effects lasted for about a month. I had joint pain as well. I read that C. butyricum improves the environment for other probiotic bacteria to grow (e.g. LAB, BB). I also read that there are other clostridia species which ferment uric acid. I wonder if those other clostridia were able to multiplicate and were drawing uric acid from my joints to my gut
After taking it I was finally able to tolerate other probx incl acidophilus - not that I thrive when taking acidophilus anyway, but at least Idon't get panic attacks from it anymore (acidosis/hypoglycemia?)

I have all the same symptoms (including low gut motility and unable to get out of bed lately). I'm trained by the 'high histamine/undermethylator' thing to always think histamine is bad.

I trialled D-Lactate free bacteria and those also consumed all the beneficial histamine I had. The best combo I tried was L. rhamnosus + B. bifidum + L. casei = perfect GABA/Histamine balance if taken every other day for about 3 weeks. Longer than that I think I got too much tyramine from casei. Taking abx last year pretty much ruined every benefit I had from probx (would get quick ammonia build up and even had to go to ER due to dehydration from IBS-D).

As I said, Miyarisan has had a very strong effect on my anxiety, and I wonder if I should try cutting back to just 1 or 2 tablets.

I wonder if you had high serotonin or high histamine.

Have you been able to take other probiotics without the low-histamine symptoms?

Detailed above

 

[Gondwanaland]

J Mol Neurosci. 2015 Jun;56(2):320-8. doi: 10.1007/s12031-015-0536-3. Epub 2015 Mar 29.
Interaction Between Brain Histamine and Serotonin, Norepinephrine, and Dopamine Systems: In Vivo Microdialysis and Electrophysiology Study.

Abstract
Brain monoamines (serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, and histamine) play an important role in emotions, cognition, and pathophysiology and treatment of mental disorders. The interactions between serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine were studied in numerous works; however, histamine system received less attention. The aim of this study was to investigate the interactions between histamine and other monoamines, using in vivo microdialysis and electrophysiology. It was found that the inverse agonist of histamine-3 receptors, thioperamide, increased the firing activity of dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area. Selective agonist of histamine-3 receptors, immepip, reversed thiperamide-induced stimulation of firing activity of dopamine neurons. The firing rates of serotonin and norpeinephrine neurons were not attenuated by immepip or thioperamide. Thioperamide robustly and significantly increased extracellular concentrations of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine in the rat prefrontal cortex and slightly increased norepinephrine and dopamine levels in the tuberomammillary nucleus of the hypothalamus. It can be concluded that histamine stimulates serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine transmission in the brain. Modulation of firing of dopamine neurons is a key element in functional interactions between histamine and other monoamines. Antagonists of histamine-3 receptors, because of their potential ability to stimulate monoamine neurotransmission, might be beneficial in the treatment of mental disorders.

 

[outdamnspot]

I took 1 pill 1x or 2x and the effects lasted for about a month. I had joint pain as well. I read that C. butyricum improves the environment for other probiotic bacteria to grow (e.g. LAB, BB). I also read that there are other clostridia species which ferment uric acid. I wonder if those other clostridia were able to multiplicate and were drawing uric acid from my joints to my gut
After taking it I was finally able to tolerate other probx incl acidophilus - not that I thrive when taking acidophilus anyway, but at least Idon't get panic attacks from it anymore (acidosis/hypoglycemia?)

I don't get join pain so much, but my muscles feel very heavy and ache ..

I trialled D-Lactate free bacteria and those also consumed all the beneficial histamine I had. The best combo I tried was L. rhamnosus + B. bifidum + L. casei = perfect GABA/Histamine balance if taken every other day for about 3 weeks. Longer than that I think I got too much tyramine from casei. Taking abx last year pretty much ruined every benefit I had from probx (would get quick ammonia build up and even had to go to ER due to dehydration from IBS-D).

Oh bummer, I just spent $100 on custom probiotics D-lactate/histamine-free mix. I'll experiment with it, but now I'm guessing it might have a similar effect to the Miyarisan .. I know my gut's a mess from stool testing -- I had a strep overgrowth which I've treated with abx. recently, but also undetectable Lacto/Bifido levels. If I can't find a probiotic that helps, I'm not sure what I'll do .. maybe FMT? Where did you find the Rhamonosus, Bifidum and Casei as standalone strains?

I wonder if you had high serotonin or high histamine.

Possibly. I had anxiety that was bordering on psychosis (not literally -- but extreme fear, panic attacks etc.) and that has improved on the Miyarisan. Though feeling so apathetic and numb is almost worse in a way ..

 

[Gondwanaland]

Oh bummer, I just spent $100 on custom probiotics D-lactate/histamine-free mix. I'll experiment with it, but now I'm guessing it might have a similar effect to the Miyarisan ..

You could mix it with some cheaper high histamine ones, or take in alternate days.

Where did you find the Rhamonosus, Bifidum and Casei as standalone strains?

I get them locally compounded under my dr's prescription.

Possibly. I had anxiety that was bordering on psychosis (not literally -- but extreme fear, panic attacks etc.)

Diet might play a role there.

Though feeling so apathetic and numb is almost worse in a way ..

You can say that again

 

[outdamnspot]

You could mix it with some cheaper high histamine ones, or take in alternate days.

Well, I was trying to avoid D-Lactate producing strains, since I presumed that was an issue for me (and CFS in general). Won't high histamine probiotics also increase d-lactate?

I get them locally compounded under my dr's prescription.

How did he know which specific strains you needed?

Diet might play a role there.

Possibly .. I'm on a Keto diet, but have to be because of blood sugar issues.

You can say that again

I skipped the Miyarisan last night and feel better today emotionally. One thing I didn't really appreciate though was how less fatigued I was on it -- I could stay awake all day without needing to nap, maybe because it was improving sleep quality. Today I'm exhausted again.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Well, I was trying to avoid D-Lactate producing strains, since I presumed that was an issue for me (and CFS in general). Won't high histamine probiotics also increase d-lactate?

You will find some answers in this thread.

How did he know which specific strains you needed?

I do the research myself

Possibly .. I'm on a Keto diet, but have to be because of blood sugar issues.

Did your anxiety levels changed with this diet?

I skipped the Miyarisan last night and feel better today emotionally. One thing I didn't really appreciate though was how less fatigued I was on it -- I could stay awake all day without needing to nap, maybe because it was improving sleep quality. Today I'm exhausted again.

Perhaps you could find a balance by taking it every other day?

 

[hahahoha]

hello people, been following the discussion and supplementing with Butyric Acid. While im on it i have slight diarrhea, but ill take that than my chronic constipation any day. Stomach never been flatter in 12 years. Miyarisan had arrived today.

Is it redundant to be taking butyric acid if you have miyarisan? As in miyarisan will produce much more butyric acid?

 

[outdamnspot]

You will find some answers in this thread.

I do the research myself

Did your anxiety levels changed with this diet?

Perhaps you could find a balance by taking it every other day?

Not sure if my anxiety changed with Keto, but it's invaluable for stopping CFS-related hypoglycemia. My anxiety did increase a lot once I developed CFS anyway, though.

What's weird is that my anxiety/mood/cognition post-Miyarsan is better than pre- .. so I wonder if it cleared something up (coinciding with the clear tongue). And when I look back on trying it, I didn't just feel 'flat'/apathetic, I was getting a lot of painful intrusive thoughts and suicidal ideation. So maybe part of it was die-off .. or an immune response.

I may try it again at 1 tab every day or other day.

 

[Gondwanaland]

it's invaluable for stopping CFS-related hypoglycemia

I suppose untreated metabolic syndrome can worsen CFS a lot.

And when I look back on trying it, I didn't just feel 'flat'/apathetic, I was getting a lot of painful intrusive thoughts and suicidal ideation.

I get that when estrogen gets too low (which lowers serotonin even more and then I can't make T3 hormone). I see you are male, but men have estrogen too, and going too low might be detriemental. High manganese fruits and triterpen-rich herbs help with that. Gamma-Linolenic-Acid might help - low carb / keto dites have zero of that. There is a sweet spot for the serotonin cascade... Too much causes anxiety, too low causes depression.

 

[outdamnspot]

I get that when estrogen gets too low (which lowers serotonin even more and then I can't make T3 hormone). I see you are male, but men have estrogen too, and going too low might be detriemental. High manganese fruits and triterpen-rich herbs help with that. Gamma-Linolenic-Acid might help - low carb / keto dites have zero of that. There is a sweet spot for the serotonin cascade... Too much causes anxiety, too low causes depression.

But how would this relate to Miyarisan? I only experienced these depressive symptoms on Miyarisan. I remember @Hip saying that things which activate Th1 immunity induce severe depression in him, so I thought it might be a possible factor perhaps, rather than being strictly related to histamine ..