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Rethinking Probiotics.

Discussion in 'Mast Cell Disorders/Mastocytosis' started by Ema, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Yesterday an email popped up in my inbox regarding probiotics and histamine. Since I've been taking abx for a while now for Lyme, I've always been very pro-probiotics. But I've also had issues with abdominal bloating especially after mealtimes and multiple chemical sensitivity due to high histamine.

    So this article says that some strains of probiotics are histamine producing...and some are histamine degrading. And it apparently can really make a difference for some people in terms of weight, bloating and histamine reactions if they overconsume the histamine producing variety. PubMed has articles on this topic as well and there are blog posts galore when you search for probiotics and histamine. I don't know how I missed this for so long!
    Yogurt falls into the histamine producing category as well and it is also insulinemic which is no good for those of us with insulin resistance.

    The good news is that there are probiotics available that do not contain the histamine producing strains of probiotics.

    So, sorry VSL #3. I'm switching to Xymogen...

    From Chris Kresser:
    One of my patients that has histamine intolerance discovered, I guess, a German study that was translated and posted in a Facebook group that talks about these issues, a fecal bacteria therapy group. And this study apparently looked at various microbial strains and broke them into three categories: one category that’s histamine producing; another category, which seems to be sort of neither histamine producing, nor histamine degrading; and then the third category would be histamine degrading. And so obviously you have histamine intolerance, you’d want to focus on the ones that are histamine degrading, and you’d want to avoid the ones that are histamine producing.

    And the histamine-producing category is Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus reuteri, Lactobacillus plantarum (Ema added it may produce tyramine though), and Lactococcus lactis, Enterococcus faecalis, and various types of E. coli.

    And then the ones that seem to degrade histamine and be beneficial are lots of bifidobacteria species, but particularly Bifidobacterium infantis and then Lactobacillus rhamnosus and salivarius and sporogenes and Lactobacillus gasser.

    This is the tip of the iceberg because there are a lot more species, obviously, of probiotics out there, and I personally wonder about soil-based organisms. I just anecdotally in my practice have observed that soil-based organisms are much better tolerated by people with histamine intolerance and people with SIBO, so my suspicion is that those are not histamine builders and may even be histamine degraders, but I don’t have any evidence to back that up. It’s been interesting, though, to observe that, that the soil-based organisms are better. And in fact, pretty soon here I’m going to write an article about one of the products that I’m using a lot in my practice called Prescript-Assist that I really like. I’m using it actually myself personally and having some really good results, and I’ve been using it with my patients with good results, so stay tuned for an article about that.

    (This is not a complete list unfortunately. I want to try to put a better list together from all the articles I've read.)

    Below from http://thelowhistaminechef.com/these-probiotic-strains-lower-histamine-rather-than-raising-it/:

    SO I’M LOOKING FOR A PROBIOTIC SUPPLEMENT WITH INFLAMMATION LOWERING…

    (read the article below to understand the logic)
    Bifidobacterium infantis
    Bifidobacterium longum
    Lactobacillus reuteri (raises histamine in the short term but elevates anti inflammatory cAMP levels)
    But also Lactobacillus plantarum (lowers/inhibits tyramine and putrescine) (Ema added conflicting reports on this one. Study shows it actually produces tyramine which is also a biological amine that those on low histamine diets may want to avoid.)

    POTENTIALLY…

    Saccharomyces-Boulardii: I found a number of studies on its effectiveness in treating gastroenteritis, which some researchers have linked to high histamine/mast cell issues.

    NEUTRAL STRAINS…

    Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus Lactis, Lactococcus Lactis, and Lactobacillus plant arum which do not have any effect on biogenic amines like histamine and tyramine.

    BUT NOT…

    Lactobacillus casei (produces histamine and tyramine)
    Lactobacillus Bulgaricus (increases histamine alone)

    http://www.bulletproofexec.com/why-yogurt-and-probiotics-make-you-fat-and-foggy/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Beyond+Organic+Probiotic+Post&utm_content=Beyond+Organic+Probiotic+Post+CID_ef03d869b8ce71fa7ef52e8c50448368&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor%20Mailing&utm_term=Click%20here%20to%20read%20the%20entire%20article
    (I wouldn't buy an MLM product if I can help it but the info is good regardless).
    Ema
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
    WillowJ, PeterPositive, NK17 and 11 others like this.
  2. camas

    camas Senior Member

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    Ema,

    Thanks so much for this. I've struggled with various probiotics, but seemed to be okay with Align which is a Bifidobacterium infantis. Florastor, a Saccharomyces-Boulardii, made my throat swell. I thought it might be because it's yeast based and I was just allergic, but now I wonder? Very interesting.
     
  3. AbbyDear

    AbbyDear

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    Thanks, some good info. I have a difficult time with probiotics in general, including soil based. I think the worse for me is the bifodo lactis.

    I am thinking this is refererng to histamine produced in gut, which I am guessing is similar to that which is ingested via food. I wonder how this differs from histamine reaction, allergy reaction.

    Also, I am wondering how histamine intolerance is detected/diagnosed, and how it is in fact different from allgery. I think there is a test for serum histamine, though it is difficult to come by. I think there is a related test, diamine oxidase (DAO), but again, I think it is difficult to come by.
     
  4. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Is all yogurt insulinemic or just the flavored ones that have tons of sugar added?
     
  5. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Very interesting, Ema, thank you. I have been reading about different probiotics for a long time, but this is completely new to me.
     
  6. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Little Bluestem likes this.
  7. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I just read a piece of Dave Asprey about probiotics and the effects on histamine.
    http://www.bulletproofexec.com/why-yogurt-and-probiotics-make-you-fat-and-foggy/

    I don't know if it's allowed to copy-paste a whole article but here it is. Just ignore the self-promotion for his coffee product.

     
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  8. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    I have come to the same conclusion myself and I now only consume B strain probiotics. They actually produce not only the DAO enzyme but other amine oxidases as well that break down other nitrosamines. Another thing to note of is that the DAO produced in the gut is completely Cu dependent. If you don't get it from your diet you cannot make the enzyme. The poduction also requires B6 in its P5P form to go through. Worth nothing if buying Histame as a supplement is expensive, make sure you are supplementing with Copper and P5P first.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  9. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I'll have to give this some thought - it's an interesting hypothesis. But I LOVE yogurt. I might avoid it during allergy season Only and see. I am now taking Spirulina which is an anti-histamine. It does work. Now that allergy season is over I have fallen back to a dose of 2g/day as this works after 3 months. I was taking 10.5g during the season. idk if I needed that much, but since I was not taking it in advance maybe I did.
     
    merylg likes this.
  10. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    Spirulina is also a th1 cytokine booster and helps to balance your th1 and th2, that is the reason why it works as an antihistamine, it works indirectly.
     
    merylg likes this.
  11. Tara

    Tara

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    Anyone know of a histamine degrading (or neutral) probiotic, that is also free of d-lactate (or at least non d-lactate producing)?

    Also, is lactobacillus coagulant histamine producing or degrading?
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Tara, Top of the thread has the info compiled by the low histamine chef, Yasmina. She is using Ben Lynch's probiotic, not good for me as it contains prebiotics, which also feed the SIBO. You can find this linked to her site.
    I switched mine, to the first 2 in the iherb list, also using PrescriptAssist, soil-based. I now alternate these.

    I've also taken her recommendation re nigella (black cumin)oil, adding it to my skin creams. It seems to be hydrating, my skin loves it.

    BELOW IHERB LISTINGS FOLLOW 2-3 HOURS RESEARCHING IHERB AND OTHERS MENTIONED ABOVE. THE REST HAVE UNWANTED PROBIOTICS OR OTHER INGREDIENTS. DEC 2 2013]

    http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Primadophilus-Reuteri-Pearls-60-Pearls/14704
    1 Billion CFU Lactobacillus acidophilus; Bifidobacterium longum; Lactobacillus reuteri; Lactobacillus rhamnosus)

    * http://www.iherb.com/Ortho-Molecular-Products-Ortho-Biotic-Gastrointestinal-Health-60-Capsules/20798#p=2&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=lactobacillus plantarum&rc=184&sr=null&ic=47
    Proprietary Blend
    20 Billion CFU++
    Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus paracasei,
    Bifidobacterium bifidum,
    Bifidobacterium lactis
    Lactobacillus plantarum
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus
    Saccharomyces Boulardii

    http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Advanced-Multi-Billion-Dophilus-60-Veggie-Caps/14215#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=l. paracasei&rc=36&sr=null&ic=3
    L. acidophilus, LA-5
    B. lactis, BB-12
    L. paracasei, L. CASEI 431
    L. rhamnosus GG, LGG

    http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Advanced-40-Acidophilus-120-Veggie-Caps/8751#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=l. paracasei&rc=36&sr=null&ic=6
    Advanced 40+ Acidophilus Complex providing
    L. acidophilus, LA-5
    L. rhamnosus GG, LGG
    L. paracasei, L CASEI 431
    B. lactis, BB-12
    S. thermophilus, TH-4
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
    sregan, Wayne, Radio and 2 others like this.
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Thank you, @ahmo ! I've been looking for this post - ready to go shopping!
     
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  15. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @ahmo

    If only we could put an invoice in to someone for hours spent researching stuff:rolleyes:
     
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  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @maryb, I'll go for that! I wanted to modify my post re brands to add that one of my criteria was not needing ice for shipping, but there's no edit prompt showing. oh well.:aghhh:..i like these little guys.
     
  17. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I was reading the labels on your links, @ahmo , and both the Solgar products said "refrigeration optional". The Reuteri Pearls said "No refrigeration needed".

    My pulmonologist is willing to order DAO activity tests if we can only find somewhere (preferably in the US) that does the test. Any clues?

    Oh, and I wanted to post my research on tests:
    http://lsialab.com/gb/Histamine_Intolerance_Test

    http://www.purehealthshop.co.uk/shop/article_22/Histamine-DAO-Enzyme-Test-(blood).html?sessid=hkB6QKFTGubAErWfK9nChk00QDYU3jAxMeXNiCKNeQcX6iWah00OiQhKCjOhegw7&shop_param=cid%3D1%26aid%3D22%26 (Note: I wrote to find what kind of test)

    http://www.sciotec.at/uploads/media/dao_rea_en.pdf

    ...and on HI/DAO Articles:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1998.tb11141.x/full
    In the gut H catabolism is preferentially performed by diamine oxidase (DAO) and H-N-methyltransferase (HNMT), present in epithelial cells of the small and large bowel. 5 Because the rate of H degradation might influence the occurrence and severity of allergic symptoms, this study investigated the distribution of DAO activity in the gut of patients suffering from FA and healthy subjects. (Note: See references 5, 16, and 17)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6416024
    Studies were performed on the distribution and properties of intestinal diamine oxidase (DAO) previously called histaminase. DAO activity is high in the gastrointestinal tract of all investigated species. The highest values are in the aboral part of the small intestine: where DAO is localized in the mucosa, predominantly in the top villus region. A high reaction velocity of human intestinal DAO is observed with putrescine, methylhistamine and histamine. H2 receptor antagonists and an agonist (impromidine) inhibit intestinal DAO. The physiological and pathophysiological significance of intestinal DAO in the regulation of histamine and putrescine levels is described, as is the possibility that DAO may act as a growth retardant.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2222.1990.tb02791.x/abstract

    http://www.researchgate.net/publica...nd_supporting_treatment_for_chronic_headaches
    This one was discouraging...I want my tomatoes back!!!!
     
    ahmo likes this.
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Critterina, yes, that's what I was trying to add to my post. These are the ones that don't need refrigeration, which is necessary for me in Aus. So, there could have been some others there which I didn't list, as they weren't suitable for me.

    I'll look through your links tomorrow. Thanks very much. ;)
     
    Critterina likes this.
  19. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I know what you mean... I ordered BH4, paid a lot of $$$ for it, and although it had a 'cold pack', it was left in my mailbox for hours when the shade temperature was 108 deg F (42 deg C).
     
  20. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @ahmo
    I noticed the first in your list has L. reuteri, which increases histamine, at least in the short run. Being one to be laid low by a slice of tomato, I'm not going to risk that one. Oh, and I have been chastised professionally for not italicizing the genus and species consistently, so watch me now!
     

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