Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Gondwanaland]

But how would this relate to Miyarisan?

It seems that Miyarisan degrades serotonin, or somehow antagonizes its synthesis. That is one way to prevent IBS-D which is the recommendation to take it in the 1st place.

 

[Hip]

It seems that Miyarisan degrades serotonin, or somehow antagonizes its synthesis. That is one way to prevent IBS-D which is the recommendation to take it in the 1st place.

Do you mean Clostridium butyricum reduces serotonin in the gut? If so, that should not affect the brain, as serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier.

 

[Gondwanaland]

cannot cross the blood-brain barrier.

What about the headlines in all scientific journoals about 2 years ago on the unhindered connection between gut and brain via lymphatic system?

Maps of the lymphatic system: old (left) and updated to reflect the new discovery.University of Virginia Health System.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih...tic-vessels-discovered-central-nervous-system

 

[Hip]

What about the headlines in all scientific journoals about 2 years ago on the unhindered connection between gut and brain via lymphatic system?

I am not sure, but when they perform animal tests on the BBB permeability of a given compound, presumably if that compound does not get in the brain, even through the lymph system, then it's concluded that it does not cross the BBB.

In any case, the brain's meningeal lymphatic vessels I believe only drain fluid from the brain. Lymph fluid is not pumped into the brain. So these lymph vessels cannot draw compounds into the brain.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am not sure, but when they perform animal tests on the BBB permeability of a given compound, presumably if that compound does not get in the brain, even through the lymph system, then it's concluded that it does not cross the BBB.

In any case, the brain's meningeal lymphatic vessels I believe only drain fluid from the brain. Lymph fluid is not pumped into the brain. So these lymph vessels cannot draw compounds into the brain.

Now that we know that gut bacteria can speak to the brain

http://universityhealthnews.com/dai...-the-gut-brain-connection-with-psychobiotics/

etc

 

[Hip]

Now that we know that gut bacteria can speak to the brain

http://universityhealthnews.com/dai...-the-gut-brain-connection-with-psychobiotics/

We know that the gut can communicate with the brain by the vagus nerve, and that this communication may activate the sickness behavior response (which then triggers fatigue, depression, etc in the brain). The sickness behavior response is activated by the vagus when this nerve senses local infection/inflammation in the organs of the torso, including the gut.

The vagus nerve has sensors for IL-1β and TNF-α, which are inflammatory cytokines and markers of inflammation, and when this nerve detects IL-1β and TNF-α in an organ like the gut, it sends a signal to the brain, and the brain then responds by triggering the sickness behavior response, making you more tired and depressed.

So if you reduce inflammation in your gut, then it can improve your mood and reduce fatigue.



However, that's a slightly different subject to the idea of serotonin made in the gut affecting the brain.

 

[outdamnspot]

Do you mean Clostridium butyricum reduces serotonin in the gut? If so, that should not affect the brain, as serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier.

Do you have an alternative explanation for why Clostridium butyricum might induce depression? Could it plausibly be Th1 activation (which Adreno mentions in his first post)?

 

[Hip]

Do you have an alternative explanation for why Clostridium butyricum might induce depression? Could it plausibly be Th1 activation (which Adreno mentions in his first post)?

Regular lactate-producing probiotics boost Th1, but I am not sure if Clostridium butyricum, which produces butyrate rather than lactate, affects the Th1/Th2 balance.

Butyrate boosts the effects of interferon, though, and interferon can induce depression. So that might explain how Clostridium butyricum induces depression in some people.

 

[outdamnspot]

Regular lactate-producing probiotics boost Th1, but I am not sure if Clostridium butyricum, which produces butyrate rather than lactate, affects the Th1/Th2 balance.

Butyrate boosts the effects of interferon, though, and interferon can induce depression. So that might explain how Clostridium butyricum induces depression in some people.

Is interferon-induced depression typically transient?

 

[Hip]

Is interferon-induced depression typically transient?

No, it remains while interferon is elevated. It is a major problem when interferon is given medically for conditions like hep C. Usually they give SSRIs to try to treat the interferon-induced depression.

 

[Paralee]

And now for a simple post (there's no way I know everything posted here, or even can learn). From what @Gondwanaland said about one symptom of too many oxalates I was pretty sure I did. To do a little test I drank some soy milk last night and got sleepy right away.
Today my head is almost ringing (but no noise) and feeling so strange.

I have been trying to link B6 toxicity and pseudo gout (chondrocalcinosis) together and I think I have but can't even connect two dots today much less several. But I wander.... what I would like to know before I post again is how does one know where to cut off at symptom description?
Maybe I should message a lady on this thread about this?

 

[actup]

This is just an update. I had been on miyarisan for 6months and experienced a significant decrease in severity of pem episodes-that is until I tried to cut back dose to twice a day rather than the three daily doses I had been taking. I had a return of severe reflux and thrush. Also pem symptoms worsened over the 5weeks on the lower dose. Have been back
on the 3 times per day dosing for two weeks with resolution of thrush and a steady improvement in pem problems.

Uncertain of the science behind miyarisan's efficacy for some pwme but it is one of the few treatments that have consistently helped me so will continue the 6 tabs three times per day indefinitely.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Uncertain of the science behind miyarisan's efficacy for some pwme but it is one of the few treatments that have consistently helped me so will continue the 6 tabs three times per day indefinitely.

The Miyarisan Pharmaceutical Co. has extensive knowledge of the efficacy of Miyairi 588 for many conditions, however I think we're suffering from the bias against ME/CFS.

This organism has been researched for 40+ years and still it's ability to shift the immune system and provide relief for Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, among other things, seems to me to go unnoticed.

I think we need Doctors and Pharmaceutical Companies to assist in developing strategies for treatment with probiotics, but when will they take this problem seriously?

Edit: Ohh, I quit Miyarisan for three weeks and suddenly got knocked on my ass by exposure to someone with mothballs in their purse. Three weeks and I forgot?

I do want to forget this disease.

 

[dannybex]

I get low histamine symptoms. Worsened gut motility, feeling flat emotionally, can't get out of bed in the morning etc

I have chronically elevated histamine, and also have terrible gut motility and a very difficult time in the mornings.

 

[dannybex]

Uncertain of the science behind miyarisan's efficacy for some pwme but it is one of the few treatments that have consistently helped me so will continue the 6 tabs three times per day indefinitely.

I think as others have suggested, it may help or harm depending on the type or balance of other strains in the gut.

 

[dannybex]

Interestingly, my typically-coated tongue has cleared up pretty much completely on Miyarisan. Still feel like I'm in too much of a parasympathetic state, i.e. oversleeping, too calm/lazy etc. I remember someone saying that treatments that worked for them would sometimes activate a 'deep parasympathetic' state, and it would generally take the body some time to level out; I've been stuck in fight-flight mode for months on end, so perhaps things will eventually work themselves out.

I'd kill to be in a 'too calm' state.

 

[keenly]

I'd kill to be in a 'too calm' state.

Try CBD oil.

 

[eljefe19]

@adreno check it out;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615854/
Clostridium butyricum activates Akt and induces BDNF btw

 

[dannybex]

Try CBD oil.

I might consider it at some point, but would prefer to address the reason (or reasons) for the problem.

 

[keenly]

Is it a good idea to use this probiotic whilst on rifaximin?