Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[South]

CB might antagonize amines and serotonin

@Gondwanaland Did you find some study or theory on this?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland Did you find some study or theory on this?

Please see my disclaimer

 

[kangaSue]

It just occurred to me that CB might antagonize amines and serotonin, therefore causing gastroparesis.

Gastroparesis and slow colonic motility are two separate issues although it's reasonable to think a slowed colon can also delay the G.I. transit further up the system.

I had chronic gastroparesis to start with before trying CB. I have an ultra low fibre diet as fibre really screws up the G.I.system for most of us with chronic gastroparesis. My theory is that CB somehow causes constipation in some because of this lack of insoluble fibre in the colon.

Is anybody having constipation issues with a high fibre diet?

 

[Basilico]

I am considering ordering Mutaflor and wonder what your experience with it was. I tested low for e coli on the DD CDA test. I test 2+ for candida and 4+ for enterobacter cloacae and so am working on gut balance. Clostridium was 4+ but in the beneficial column.

Our experience so far has been inconclusive with Mutaflor. We both took it for around a month before traveling to Italy and getting a nasty flu, which screwed everything up.
In the month we were taking it we noticed that my constipation got better, and my husband noticed a moderate improvement in GI function and a decrease in anxiety/panic attacks. Unfortunately these symptoms have a history of changing with no apparent reason, so it's really hard to tell if it was the Mutaflor or not. Traveling and getting sick made it even harder to evaluate any effect of the probiotic regimen.
What I can say is that it did not make any difference in the energy level, and, besides some gassiness and bloating for me, and gassiness and diarrhea for my husband (more with the C.B. than with the Mutaflor, Mutaflor was more tolerated), it did not have any adverse effect.

 

[Basilico]

I think I have officially given up on CB, though my husband is considering giving it a second chance, since he feels that he didn't really give it a fair go the first time (he decided to stop the Miyarisan because it was giving him GI problems that weren't improving). I took 12-18 Miyarisan consistently for about a month and noticed nothing; no improvement in any GI issues and no improvement in fatigue. I also didn't notice anything (aside from some bloating) from taking resistant starch (30-35 grams of Bob's unmodified potato starch) per day for a few weeks, so I think I'm giving up on that, also. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Lou]

I think I have officially given up on CB, though my husband is considering giving it a second chance, since he feels that he didn't really give it a fair go the first time (he decided to stop the Miyarisan because it was giving him GI problems that weren't improving). I took 12-18 Miyarisan consistently for about a month and noticed nothing; no improvement in any GI issues and no improvement in fatigue. I also didn't notice anything (aside from some bloating) from taking resistant starch (30-35 grams of Bob's unmodified potato starch) per day for a few weeks, so I think I'm giving up on that, also. Back to the drawing board.

It was far from any 'game changer' for me, as well.

 

[JPV]

It seems that genetics and cultural heritage may play a big part in the makeup of an individual's microbiome. This may explain why some people don't do well with certain probiotic strains.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland Did you find some study or theory on this?

Cell. 2015 Apr 9;161(2):264-76. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.02.047.
Indigenous bacteria from the gut microbiota regulate host serotonin biosynthesis.
Yano JM1, Yu K1, Donaldson GP1, Shastri GG1, Ann P1, Ma L2, Nagler CR3, Ismagilov RF2, Mazmanian SK1, Hsiao EY4.
Author information

• 1Division of Biology and Biological Engineering, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA.
• 2Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA.
• 3Department of Pathology and Department of Medicine, University of Chicago, Chicago, IL 60637, USA.
• 4Division of Biology and Biological Engineering, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA. Electronic address: ehsiao@caltech.edu.

Abstract
The gastrointestinal (GI) tract contains much of the body's serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT), but mechanisms controlling the metabolism of gut-derived 5-HT remain unclear. Here, we demonstrate that the microbiota plays a critical role in regulating host 5-HT. Indigenous spore-forming bacteria (Sp) from the mouse and human microbiota promote 5-HT biosynthesis from colonic enterochromaffin cells (ECs), which supply 5-HT to the mucosa, lumen, and circulating platelets. Importantly, microbiota-dependent effects on gut 5-HT significantly impact host physiology, modulating GI motility and platelet function. We identify select fecal metabolites that are increased by Sp and that elevate 5-HT in chromaffin cell cultures, suggesting direct metabolic signaling of gut microbes to ECs. Furthermore, elevating luminal concentrations of particular microbial metabolites increases colonic and blood 5-HT in germ-free mice. Altogether, these findings demonstrate that Sp are important modulators of host 5-HT and further highlight a key role for host-microbiota interactions in regulating fundamental 5-HT-related biological processes.

 

[shaya]

I was curious as to what other people are trying now. It seems like the hype of CB is dying down (although i have had some slight benefit from CB) and i was wondering if someone could lead me to a different thread where people are getting help. I thank you in advance.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I confess I have been following the oxalate thread which has originated here more closely now.

 

[Sushi]

I was curious as to what other people are trying now.

If you read the forum by clicking on New Posts when you log in each time, you will get a pretty good idea of the hot topics that people are investigating.

 

[Hip]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it is of interest:

Premature babies in neonatal intensive care units are dying from gut infections caused by a pathogenic strain of Clostridium butyricum

 

[JPV]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it is of interest:

Premature babies in neonatal intensive care units are dying from gut infections caused by a pathogenic strain of C. butyricum

I posted this a couple of days ago on it's own thread. The article doesn't mention this but I can't help but think there must be some mutations developing within various gut bacteria strains...

Why Did 60,000 Antelope Drop Dead Over Four Days?

When 60,000 critically endangered saiga antelope dropped dead in central Kazakhstan in June, it had to have been a major bummer for the veterinarians who had just arrived to study the herd. Those wildlife vets have since become detectives, trying to unravel an Agatha Christie-worthy puzzle. Now they think they have a culprit, but it’s a baffling one.

According to a new report by Live Science, harmless gut bacteria seem to have done the saiga in. As the dieoff ran its course over several apocalyptic days, field workers were on the ground taking environmental samples and conducting necropsies. An extensive analysis has since revealed that toxins produced by Pasteurella and possibly Clostridia bacteria caused extensive bleeding in the animals’ organs.

Pasteurella is a typical gut bacteria found in saigas and other ruminants, and it shouldn’t cause harm unless the animals have weakened immune systems. Some strains of Clostridia do cause disease, but genetic analyses have only turned up the harmless, garden variety bugs.

Clearly, something else seems to have happened for normally benign bacteria to wreak so much havoc. One possibility, according to wildlife vet and lead investigator Steffen Zuther, is that an exceptionally cold, hard winter, followed by a very wet spring caused the bacteria to become widespread in the environment. Perhaps herd immunity was also weakened this year, by an environmental cause not yet determined.

 

[JAGuy]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it is of interest:

Premature babies in neonatal intensive care units are dying from gut infections caused by a pathogenic strain of Clostridium butyricum

Sooooo, C. Butyricum is not a transient probiotic? It will take permanent residence in your gut if the conditions are right? Earlier in this thread, someone said it was transient.

 

[kangaSue]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it is of interest:

Premature babies in neonatal intensive care units are dying from gut infections caused by a pathogenic strain of Clostridium butyricum

I can't lay my hands on the article at the moment, it might have been posted earlier in this thread, but Miyarisan isn't one of the clostridium butyricum strains that can convert to a pathogenic form of clostridia species.

 

[KarenG]

Thanks for the replies so far -- can't do dairy so that's unfortunately out.
I can eat red meat, but react to things like lamb, duck, and now even some chicken -- really can't figure that one out.
Raddichio, squash, some green peas, coconut flour, eggs, coconut oil, and now raw carrots (not cooked) and avocado (but not at night due to histamine reaction). Without the avocado I get into potassium deficit so glad to have been able to add that in the past few months.
No grains, none of the usual carbs work either. @Gondwanaland

Ferment the raw carrots or raw carrot juice with the probiotic.

 

[KarenG]

Nitric oxide & constipation, yes.

I was doing great on CB for a few weeks and then it hit me out of nowhere. It felt like my entire GI tract had just stopped moving. Developed gastroparesis which lasted a few weeks. It all cleared up with small doses of brown algae but until it did it was a bloody nightmare.

Be careful with this CB stuff. It's the most powerful gut thing I've ever taken, and I've taken A LOT of things.

If you have an MG-like illness you might wanna try a prebiotic that massively increases acetate and see what happens. Last summer I was messing around with small doses of larch arabinogalactan for a bit (lots of discussion about it if you search the resistant starch thread) and it caused what I can only characterise as Ach poisoning. But for you, given your need to take pyridostigmine in the first place, it could be good.

Tell me about the brown algae...what does it do? Where do you get it? I do not have CFS but suffer from chronic constiptation that I am trying to resolve.

 

[KarenG]

Soooooooo, I finally read this entire thread. Soooooooo, Miyarisan is not going to colonize my gut permanently? I guess it is a "feel good" band-aid fix that will not burn my guts like supplemental butyrate, but will constipate me. Hard decisions for me to make, .

Butyrate burns your guts? There is a lot of butyrate in butter. Does butter bother you?

 

[Sidereal]

Tell me about the brown algae...what does it do? Where do you get it? I do not have CFS but suffer from chronic constiptation that I am trying to resolve.

There are various species of brown algae used for medicinal purposes. The one I use is ecklonia cava, in very small dose. You can buy this stuff from various online vendors. I would recommend doing plenty of homework first before taking prebiotic stuff like this because the effects on the body are widespread, including antimicrobial, anticoagulant, immunomodulatory and endocrine effects.

 

[JAGuy]

Butyrate burns your guts? There is a lot of butyrate in butter. Does butter bother you?

Hello Karen,

I think one of the reasons Butyrate burnt my guts is because I lacked the protective mucin coating. I am addressing this issue in the following thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fixing-leaky-gut-one-possible-me-cfs-cure.39712/