Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Wayne]

I have considered enema delivery, @Wayne, but haven't gotten round to it yet. I suspect it would be more effective that way.

Hi @Sidereal

I agree with you that it would probably be more effective. Since the stomach is many feet away from the colon (30 if I remember correctly), it seems much could happen to it on its way to the colon. Especially if there's any kind of diseased or dysfunction along the GI tract (would that be most of us?). I think it would be a viable method to consider if someone is not having success taking CB orally.​

 

[trails]

Hi @trails,

I recently ran across information which pointed to my vagus nerve as being responsible for much of my digestive and GI problems, including constipation. The following article is the best I've run across which explains much of this connection. Perhaps some of the exercises in this article will help you out in some manner..

I think this topic relates to this thread, as progress on many symptoms Closridium Butyricum is able to ameliorate can be circumvented by a poorly functioning vagus nerve. I once heard it referred to as the main communication line between the brain and the gut. My own vagus nerve problems were significantly improved by a procedure called Atlas Profilax, which repositions the uppermost cervical vertebra.

Best, Wayne
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Simple Steps To Address Constipation That You Probably Haven’t Heard About.

I will check it out, @Wayne ... Thanks for the post!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I will check it out, @Wayne ... Thanks for the post!

Have you had your thyroid checked?

 

[ahmo]

Ahmo, do you ferment only that one tab of CB in 1L milk or do you add other strains?

Every few batches I also add OrthoBiotic (orthomolecular products) capsule.

I've been eating 1 Tb generally every other day.

 

[mariovitali]

Could be nothing but this is quite new (20th October 2015) :


Clin Microbiol Infect. 2015 Oct 20. pii: S1198-743X(15)00914-3. doi: 10.1016/j.cmi.2015.10.014. [Epub ahead of print]
Clostridium butyricum: from beneficial to a new emerging pathogen.
Cassir N1, Benamar S1, La Scola B2.
Author information

Abstract
Clostridium butyricum, a strictly anaerobic spore-forming bacillus, is a common human and animal gut commensal bacterium, also frequently found in the environment. While non-toxigenic strains are currently used as probiotics in Asia, other strains have been implicated in pathologic conditions such as botulism in infants or necrotising enterocolitis in preterm neonates. In terms of the later, within the same species, different strains have antagonist effects on the intestinal mucosa. In particular, short-chain fatty acids, products of carbohydrate fermentation, have a dose-dependent paradoxical effect. Moreover, toxin genes have been identified by genome sequencing in pathologic strains. Asymptomatic carriage of these strains has also been reported. We will provide herein an overview of the implications of C. butyricum for human health, from the beneficial to the pathogenic. We focused on pathogenic strains associated with the occurrence of necrotising enterocolitis. We also discuss the need to use complementary microbiological methods, including culture, in order to better assess gut bacterial diversity and identify new emergent enteropathogens at the strain level.

Copyright © 2015. Published by Elsevier Ltd.

 

[Booson]

Hey guys,

I've spent countless hours on this forum and learned a ton of invaluable information, but this is my first post. The gut microbiome is an area that is more in my wheelhouse than anything else, as I have been dealing with severe dysbiosis for several years, and it wasn't until a protracted course of abx a couple months ago that I started to experience serious CFS symptoms for the first time. Lots of subsequent research led me to the conclusion that it is an imbalance in the lactate-producing/lactate-utilizing bacteria that is largely responsible for these symptoms. Butyrate plays a role in all of this, so I felt like this thread was a good outlet to share some of what I've learned.

First off, I should say that I have taken CB, and have found it to be incredibly helpful for relieving my brain fog related issues. For my situation, though, I have reason to believe this may be more related to Butyrate's inhibitory effect on the lipopolysaccharide signaling pathways than anything else. Nevertheless, Butyrate does seem to possess an incredible array of beneficial properties with relevance to CFS.

However, CB is not, in my opinion, the best option for boosting Butyrate. The problem is that CB, rather than lowering lactate as has been claimed on this thread, actually produces lactate, along with acetate and tons of H2 (see here). This is not necessarily problematic, but I believe what we really want are bacteria that convert lactate (especially D-Lactate) to Butyrate. Such bacteria are normally present in the colon, and most of them belong to Clostridia Cluster XIVa (see here and here). Butyrate-producing species from Cluster XIVa far outnumber those from other clusters, meaning that if you are deficient in Butyrate, it is likely these species that you are missing. CB is a member of Cluster I, not Cluster XIVa.

There are some other general metabolic differences between CB and other BPB (CB, for example, is amylolytic, and, interestingly, is a glutton for pectin), but the bottom line is that it seems it's the Cluster XIVa bacteria that we really want. There don't seem to be any commercial options for this at the moment (short of an FMT, which I'm tentatively pursuing), but I'm gonna keep my eyes peeled.

 

[adreno]

I agree that Cluster XIVa sounds more promising. I suppose this would argue RS > CB, if we have any of those critters left.

 

[JPV]

Here's the most recent post from Ken Lassesen's "CFS Remission" blog, that I felt might be relevant to the current discussion...

Some Responses To Probiotics

Probiotics are bacteria. These probiotics produce chemicals (technically antibiotics) against other bacteria. There are several ways that other bacteria may react to these antibiotics

• “Ignore them” – typically those that produce similar antibiotics
• “Stop reproduction” – the population of bacteria die off with age
• “Kill and spill their guts” – this is typically the scenario that results in a herx. THOSE bacteria are often full of toxins
• “Kill and stay encapsulated – toxins are not released into system”

The model assumes that each person bacteria mixture is unique, as well as the bacteria mixture when it goes bad and create CFS or FM or….

Over the last week I got some feedback on how various people have responded. A table of responses reported is below. I will add more as they are reported to me (so email or comment your experience)

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have just discovered the relation between vitamin K and fibrinogen and for the moment being I will reassign my unbearable inflammation from taking Miyarisan (which appears to increase vit K metabolism) to my high fibrinogen levels.

 

[hixxy]

This may have already been answered but this thread is so long!

What is the difference in strength per tablet for the normal Miyarisan and Miyarisan Strong?

 

[hixxy]

It seems the normal Miyarisan is 10mg / tablet and the Miyarisan Strong is 30mg / tablet?

 

[dannybex]

@Booson, that was a different strain than the one used in the Miyarisan probiotic that adreno (and others) are benefitting from, so not sure if the same conclusions can be made…?

 

[kangaSue]

@Booson, re-establishing butyrate species is one of the first beneficial effects to occur from doing Faecal Microbiome Transplant;

[ Redundancy analysis showed that the microbiota composition of responders in the FMT-D group shifted from overlap with nonresponders at baseline to healthy donors at week 12 (Figure 5). This shift was mainly explained by a regain of Clostridium clusters IV, XIVa, and XVIII, and reduction in Bacteroidetes. Notably, changes in Faecalibacterium prausnitzii (from 8.00 ± 5.72 at baseline to 8.37 ± 5.10 at week 12; P = .68), which belongs to Clostridium cluster IV, did not play a role in this increased abundances in our study subjects. Responders to FMT-A shifted away from nonresponders, but in a different direction than responders to FMT-D. This shift was mostly associated with an increase in abundance of Bacilli, Proteobacteria, and Bacteriodetes.]

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(15)00448-5/fulltext

 

[hixxy]

Anyone had neuropathic pain in feet and legs from taking CB? It seems to trigger off within a couple of hours of eating since I've been on CB.

 

[dannybex]

For the benefit of those looking into this who only have G.I. issues to deal with (albeit a bit complicated, I have Gastroparesis, SIBO, CIPO and Non-occlusive Mesenteric Ischemia) I've been struggling for 12 months to find something to help me with vomiting which has reached the point again where it happens after eating every meal regardless of the size of the meal.

I am taking one twice a day since then and haven't vomited once since starting it. As a bonus, both the intended poo donor and myself both have less smelly number 2's.

I'm a convert.

@kangaSue -- six months later -- did the butyricum help with your gastroparesis, etc? I haven't tried it yet, but have been taking sodium butyrate for about 3 weeks and think it's worsened my constipation.

 

[kangaSue]

@kangaSue -- six months later -- did the butyricum help with your gastroparesis, etc? I haven't tried it yet, but have been taking sodium butyrate for about 3 weeks and think it's worsened my constipation.

Like several others, I also had trouble with constipation after a few days on 2 tabs/day of the low strength Miyarisan.I cut it back to 1 tab per day which was just o.k. but that wasn't enough to stop me vomiting like 2 tabs/day did so I stopped it as anything that slows my bowel transit time can put me in hospital with severe pain from either intestinal ischemia or small bowel pseudo-obstruction if I get too backed up.

It probably didn't help that I have very little fibre in my diet which is needed to fuel CB bacteria if it is to colonize the bowel. I would have liked to try a Miyarisan and psyllium enema but putting things up my backend results in severe spasm. Actually, if I could cope with enema's I would skip Miyarisan and just do FMT as that's the quickest way to get your butyrate balance back up to speed and I've come across a couple of accounts of people saying their gastroparesis is improved with FMT.

 

[dannybex]

Thanks @kangaSue.

I read on Grace Liu's site (AnimalPharm) that CB and/or resistance starch is definitely not a good idea for some situations, especially pre-diabetic or insulin resistance issues, which are very often connected to gastroparesis. She recommends b. longum plus inulin and FOS to help in those cases. It also helps w/constipation as does l. casei KE99.

 

[kangaSue]

Thanks @kangaSue.

I read on Grace Liu's site (AnimalPharm) that CB and/or resistance starch is definitely not a good idea for some situations, especially pre-diabetic or insulin resistance issues, which are very often connected to gastroparesis. She recommends b. longum plus inulin and FOS to help in those cases. It also helps w/constipation as does l. casei KE99.

I hadn't come across that before about CB and resistant starch. Gastroparesis for me is idiopathic rather than diabetic but from personal experience, I can say it must be the case for some idiopathic cases too as I've tried some of the resistant starches as well but they are just as bad as any other soluble or insoluble type of fibre where my gut is concerned.

I see that bifidobacterium longum is commonly found to be lacking in those with IBS and IBD, unfortunately it's just another one in a long list that I just can't tolerate. It doesn't help much that I don't know from one day to the next whether I'm going to have diarrhea or constipation.

 

[kangaSue]

@dannybex, there was a good recent article looking at gut dysbiosis in IBS and IBD which identifies the main bacteria species found to be deficient.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apt.13236/full

 

[Scarecrow]

Has anyone had initial success with CB followed by no response later?

I was using 3 - 6 tablets a day to begin with but as time went on I was taking them haphazardly and missing days. Eventually I stopped taking them altogether without realising. Over time my cognitive problems were getting worse but I wasn't putting 2 and 2 together until last month, when I started to take the CB again.

Nothing.

No happy, gurgling stomach, no regular visits to the loo, no lifting of mental function / alertness.

A few days ago I tried to culture a tablet in milk. Nothing. Then I tried it some potato starch in water. Nothing.

I think the little critters are dead, so have ordered a fresh batch. Will report back.