Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Sasha]

@Sasha -thank you! Yes, I'm seeing that the stuff clearly is powerful as I'm reading everyone's posts. Why does everything have to make a sick before it makes us better?

[...] Some people on the RS (resistant starch) thread think that only the stuff that can make you feel bad at higher doses is going to help - I'm not sure about that, though! But I'm no biologist.

Here's that thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ge-is-it-the-key-weve-been-looking-for.26976/

 

[Misfit Toy]

@Sasha -omg! Just tried reading it....yikes. I'm no doctor either and to understand that I would need to be one.

Feeling worse than some of us already feel (when we are already so ill) is not an option. If it was a guarantee that I would feel better after four days of feeling horrible it would be worth it but since there's no guarantee, that's the issue for me.

Again, thank you!

 

[Sasha]

Personally, I'm not a fan of toughing it out -- I'm too debilitated already and about half an inch from being unable to live independently -- so if something does me in, I back right off, let it settle down, and then (if it's a pre/probiotic and depending on various things) resume at a very low dose, these days.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I agree. I'm not into being sicker. I think it's crap and it usually puts me into a downward spiral that takes forever to get out of.

 

[Sidereal]

I agree. I'm not into being sicker. I think it's crap and it usually puts me into a downward spiral that takes forever to get out of.

Same here. If you're getting a reaction, the best thing to do is stop the supplement until the symptoms have cleared up and then perhaps restart at a fraction of the original dose if you're feeling brave.

 

[Christopher]

Question for all the microbiome gurus: right now am having severe MCAS reactions to the point of almost not being able to tolerate any foods. I asked part of this question in the RS thread but now have a slightly different question.

If I was going to try a probiotic (right now not taking any and have tried many kinds in the last two years) would it be better for me to try Bifido Infantis (Align) which is supposed to help MCAS reactions or to try Clostridium Butyricum which is sounding like a miracle drug from this thread. I briefly tried Prescript Assist and had no problems with it but when my MCAS stuff got out of control, I stopped about 11 supplements including PA just to be safe.

Would love to hear any thoughts on this. Thank you in advance.

Align rarely works for me. I think once you're getting it it's no longer viable. I do like Natren's Bifido Factor a lot.

http://www.natren.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=N&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=020

 

[Misfit Toy]

I tried reading previous posts about this probiotic but I am not a scientist or I am smart, but again, too brain fogged to get much of it. Why, for example, it makes you have flu like symptoms. is it killing off something?

When I took VSL3, I would have diarrhea in no time and my intestine would be on FIRE. i had never felt anything like it. I tried it twice and each time, I would have to take a dilaudid...no joke. No other probiotic has ever done that.

Everyone said it was detoxing me. I said, "No, it has kerosene in it." There is detoxing and then there is fire..and my rectum/intestine felt like it had been burnt. IT took me forever to heal from. CRAZY.

 

[Crux]

I'm still trying to sort this out, with a brain at half-mast.

One reason, among many, is that CB and many other microbes produce hydrogen in the gut.

If too much hydrogen is produced, it can lower the gut PH too much, causing loose stools.

Excess hydrogen can cause muscle soreness and other types of pain.

 

[maddietod]

Did anyone switch from AOR Probiotic 3 (which contains C. B.) to Miyarisan? If yes, what dose feels equivalent to one AOR?

 

[Vegas]

Did anyone switch from AOR Probiotic 3 (which contains C. B.) to Miyarisan? If yes, what dose feels equivalent to one AOR?

I don't think these products can be readily compared. The Miyarisan product seems to have considerably more potency. Although, I responded favorably to the AOR product.

 

[Vegas]

I'm still trying to sort this out, with a brain at half-mast.

One reason, among many, is that CB and many other microbes produce hydrogen in the gut.

If too much hydrogen is produced, it can lower the gut PH too much, causing loose stools.

Excess hydrogen can cause muscle soreness and other types of pain.

Well that is what an acid is, a proton donor, but you are right this could be problematic. Not CB or its metabolite, butyrate, but the acidity of the colon. What happens when the bowel becomes overly acidic? Why do some people react so adversely to lactic acid bacteria? Butyric acid is mildly acid, I don't consider this problematic, but ME/CFS has been associated with, at least in a subset of patients, d-lactic acidosis. This is of course an old topic, but perhaps should be re-visited based upon more recent research. We also see this condition in cases of ulcerative colitis and short bowel syndrome, which are of course marked by butyrate perturbations. There is substantial evidence that this metabolic acidosis is a product of a dysbiotic GIT. It happens in animals and humans alike, and you can make it a hell of a lot worse through diet and supplementing the wrong organisms.

We have the lactate producers that are predominantly gram positive, and includes the well-known commensal LAB that people supplement with regularly. This group of net lactate producers also includes a wide number of pathogenic bacteria, streptococcus, enterococcus, etc. Overpopulations of these organisms have been documented in ME/CFS, and there are ostensibly some patient's with ME/CFS who have low and high concentrations of pathogenic and/or commensal species with the effect being the same insofar as this reduces pH.

Then we have the gram-negative sulfur/sulfate reducers, which I consider the real pathogenic influence and have been positively and strongly correlated with ME/CFS severity. Obviously SRB utilize sulfate, but what they also utilize as a co-substrate is LACTATE. This establishes a pathogenic homestatic condition that is very much regulated by pH and their effect on butyrate. Lactic acid stimulates growth of hydrogen sulfide producing organisms, while concurrently lowering the concentration of ammonia via proton donation to form ammonium, which does not readily diffuse into blood. Of course there are other positive contributions that are also concurrently provided by these organisms, but it is a mixed bag.

The excessive concentrations of hydrogen sulfide produced by these organisms prevents the enterocytes from utilizing butyrate, which most certainly impairs barrier function and thus immune function and energy biosynthesis. H2S stimulates the use of oxygen and enhances cellular respiration at low levels, but at high concentrations it inhibits cytochrome oxidase. It also dampens the inflammatory response as to control for impaired barrier function.

So what about too much lactic acid? One problem that develops in an overly acid colon is that the organisms that are believed to prevent the over-accumulation of lactate, those organisms which utilize lactate in the formation of butyrate, cannot carryout this function at very low pH. In other words, when conditions become sufficiently acidic the enzymes that carryout this transformation of lactate to butyrate no longer function and this creates a net accumulation of lactate. Does this occur in ME/CFS? I really don't know because I haven't seen any data on colonic pH.

 

[ahmo]

I've been using Miyarisan, 1/2 tab fermented into yogurt, now eating 2 Tablespoons/day. Since I began this, I've been having diarrhea. Nothing serious, but a change from the consistency I'd become accustomed over the weeks prior.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I've been using Miyarisan, 1/2 tab fermented into yogurt, now eating 2 Tablespoons/day. Since I began this, I've been having diarrhea. Nothing serious, but a change from the consistency I'd become accustomed over the weeks prior.

I am sorry to ask you that, but is it painful like oxalate dump?

 

[anne_likes_red]

4 1/2 weeks on 2 tabs now, though I stopped a few days ago to wait for negative symptoms to subside.
I mentioned in Sasha's poll thread that I was having some foot pain - a flaring symptom I'd always considered 'autoimmune' because it was during a flare in my early ME days that I was sent to a rheumatologist for testing. (Quite possibly not autoimmune at all. I only made the association because the first time I described a flare like this it resulted in discovering I had a positive ANA.....and receiving a rx for painkillers, which I never took.)

....Anyway, the past couple of weeks the pain became more widespread to legs, hips and arms.
The mention somewhere of stabbing pains in the eyes relating to oxalate dumping got my attention! I had stabbing pains in the right eye for several days last week. This is not something I recall having experienced before.

Bah. Could this be oxalate dumping? (Is that what my 'autoimmune' flares have been all along too?)

I've been trying to keep up with a busy (for someone with ME!) schedule with increasing symptoms so just stopped CB cold while I figure out what to do next and to catch up on threads.
Thanks everyone for sharing...and for going on interesting tangents too.....

 

[Sushi]

@anne_likes_red On the bright side, at least your avatar stopped farting!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@anne_likes_red what helped me with oxalate dump so far was acidophilus (!) and vitamin A. Pain-free only after taking vitamin A.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Interesting about the Vit A. Thx @Gondwanaland. I'll catch up on recent discussion around that.
I just have L's Rhamnosus and Plantarum in the fridge....Acidophillus in the kid's yogurt though.

Curious, did anyone else here have antibiotics known to knock O Formigenes back prior to becoming unwell? I didn't have many antibiotics in childhood but needed two cycles of Clindamycin in the six weeks before ME onset.

 

[Sushi]

@anne_likes_red what helped me with oxalate dump so far was acidophilus (!) and vitamin A. Pain-free only after taking vitamin A.

I have been taking these daily for quite a while so perhaps that is why I got a different symptom set from tiny doses of C.B.--loss of appetite bordering on nausea. Wonder that that is about?

 

[Sidereal]

I have been taking these daily for quite a while so perhaps that is why I got a different symptom set from tiny doses of C.B.--loss of appetite bordering on nausea. Wonder that that is about?

Sushi, you see KDM right? Do you have high D-lactate?

 

[Crux]

@Vegas ;

I've been looking for causes of some of these symptoms I've been having as well as others here.
Many folks here have one or another type of IBS.
A noticable amount of people have had negative reactions to various probiotics. I don't doubt that the over production of d-lactate is involved. There could also be a shortage of lactate utilizing bacteria.

I just wonder if there are more possible causes to the painful reactions we're having when trying various probiotics.

Excess hydrogen is one, I think, because it can reduce the pH of the colon, and stop butyrate production, along with stopping other microbes' growth.( pathogenic and beneficial) We lose energy this way.

I've been reading about hydrogenotrophs, bacteria that utilize hydrogen, but, they include SRBs, methanogens, and, acetogens. As you've written, SRBs can be toxic. Methanogens are associated with diseases. Acetogens seem like they could be beneficial for producing energy, ATP. ( That's what we're looking for !)

These bacteria compete with each other for hydrogen, and usually the SRBs or methanogens win. We lose the energy that the hydrogen could provide.

Since there are so few biomarkers for ME/CFS, comparing symptoms and reactions to supplements, drugs, etc. is what we have for now.

I do believe the gut is the place to look for causes in ME/CFS, and diseases in general. I mean, just look at the powerful reactions to CB folks are having!

I think it's not only which bacteria that are needed or not, but proportions as well.

Maybe folks who are having trouble with CB could try reducing other gut microbes first ?