Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Gondwanaland]

I am unsure about when I will tolerate CB again. Now that it allowed me to tolerate acidophilus, I think I will stick to it to purge oxalates for some time to avoid the horrible pain triggered by CB.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sidereal what is the take away for dummies from your post about acetycholne? Are choline supplements useless when taking Miyarisan?

 

[Sushi]

Regarding the possible acetylcholine situation as a result of our efforts to displace pathogens in the gut:

Any chance someone could summarize this in bullet point style (just the main points) for those of us whose brains go into tailspins trying to understand this?

 

[whodathunkit]

Regarding the possible acetylcholine situation as a result of our efforts to displace pathogens in the gut:

The Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway: A Missing Link in Neuroimmunomodulation

Maybe this is why seemed to *really* get better after having that "stomach flu" around Christmas, after taking a lot of choline and ALCAR in the nootropic stack.

That illness was more like a purge than a virus and I've been pondering ever since why it should have had such a dramatic effect on my gut health. It was just plain weird and didn't make sense. My cravings literally disappeared from it and I've lost an extraordinary amount of weight since then, with very little trouble.

My "For Dummies" explanation, based on the article Side posted: maybe all the acetylcholine generated from the supplements I was taking just stomped on my bad microbes.

Does anyone smarter than me with better cognitive function think this could be the case?

Edited to add: I was writing this when @Gondwanaland was posting about dummies, too. Great minds and all that.

 

[South]

And then there are weirdos like me who have always gotten immediate migraines from any kind of supplement with "choline" in the name: acetylcholine, choline citrate, cdp choline, or one other choline product whose name escapes me. I went round and round on the internet trying to find out why, a couple of years ago, and gave up.

(I was not taking any probiotics then. Now that I'm slowly experimenting with c. butyricum, I'm still not willing to touch choline things again, for fear of those migraines.)

 

[alicec]

Any chance someone could summarize this in bullet point style (just the main points) for those of us whose brains go into tailspins trying to understand this?

I'm taking a lunch break from my duties and thought I'd read the paper to give me something interesting to think about when I have to return.

I'll just summarise the excerpt - no time to read the whole paper.

This is about how acetylcholine (ACh) can affect the immune system.

First they remind us that ACh is an important neurotransmitter in the brain and is the principle neurotransmitter carrying signals from the brain to the periphery via the vagus nerve (ie efferent signals - this is very relevant to the experiments they describe).

There are two types of ACh receptors and the authors note that RNA for both types (ie the message that would result in production of the receptor protein) has been found in various immune and non-immune cytokine-producing cells which themselves produce ACh. In other words ACh is not confined to the nervous system.

They have identified one type of receptor on macrophages and go on to describe experiments with human macrophages in culture.

They show that ACh can significantly reduce production of various proinflammatory cytokines when macrophages are stimulated with endotoxin. Most notable among these is TNF which is an important mediator of the devastating effects of endotoxin. In other words, ACh has a strong anti-inflammatory/immunosuppressive effect.

They then go on to study whether immunosuppressive effects can be observed in the whole animal. For this they use rats with various manipulations of the vagus nerve to increase or decrease ACh production.

Again they show that increase of ACh profoundly suppresses TNF production in response to endotoxin.

Finally they remind us that stimulation of the vagus nerve can lead to anti-inflammatory effects at distant sites and that there is widespread distribution of vagal efferents throughout the reticuloendothelial system and periphery, with signalling along these pathways being very rapid.

They conclude that the cholinergic pathway is uniquely positioned to modulate inflammation in real time.

 

[alicec]

Now that I'm slowly experimenting with c. butyricum

From our experiences and your choline sensitivity, I would say be very careful - start very low and increase very slowly.

I'm now rethinking every supplement I take to see if there is anything else there that might be stimulating ACh. I seem to now have more than enough.

 

[Sushi]

I'm taking a lunch break from my duties and thought I'd read the paper to give me something interesting to think about when I have to return.

I'll just summarise the excerpt - no time to read the whole paper.

Thanks so much, that helps a lot!

 

[JPV]

The sympathetic overactivity also comes and goes and many different things can set it off. Mostly it consists of hypertension, tachycardia, palpitations, anxiety/unease, wired but tired feeling, sleep disturbance. It seems to be quite a bit worse lately, probably linked to miyarisan. From my disturbed night last night, lightheadedness this morning and just feeling unwell all day, I conclude I am taking too much miyarisan. The sympathetic response might just be an indirect response to this.

I've been having a bit more difficulty getting to sleep the last couple of weeks. I also seem to wake up in the middle of the night and have had a few nightmares recently, which very rarely used to happen in the past. If anything, I feel like I used to sleep too deeply in the past, which I've always interpreted as my body compensating for lack of restorative sleep.

I've been taking Miyarisan for about four weeks now. I also regularly take about 300mcg of liquid Melatonin for Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder. As a side note, I haven't been able to recollect my dreams for years until I started taking Melatonin . The Miyarisan seems to have intensified dream recollection even more.

The last couple of weeks I've been experimenting with TUDCA and Turmeric. I wonder if these could be this causing the sleep disturbances, since the timing seems to coincide, or if it's a delayed reaction to the Miyarisan? Do any of these sleep problems sound like they could be associated with Acetylcholine?

For the sake of completeness, I've also been using David Whitlock's AO+ Mist Spray and Beet Root powder for about a week, to experiment with increasing NO, but the sleep issues where happening a week or so before I added those item onto my regimen.

 

[Sidereal]

Do any of these sleep problems sound like they could be associated with Acetylcholine?

Yes. I took some CB and potato starch yesterday and here I am at 5 am posting on PR. At one point last summer after I'd been taking larch for a week or two I stopped being able to sleep altogether. I slept in five-minute increments for like 3-4 hours a night for quite some time.

Everything that kills gram negative pathogens in the gut and therefore releases endotoxin/LPS will do this to you, the question is just how well the supplement works and whether you are taking a dose big enough to produce enough inflammation to jack up your cholinergic response.

Turmeric is a really strong prebiotic. I think you're just going way too fast. The reaction is usually cumulative so it doesn't always show up until days or weeks after starting. In my experience there is zero benefit to be derived from taking doses of anything that exceed tolerance. I know it's hard to maybe come to terms with this but too big a dose of something can be detrimental while I tiny dose the size of a speck of dust can be therapeutic.

 

[JPV]

Everything that kills gram negative pathogens in the gut and therefore releases endotoxin/LPS will do this to you, the question is just how well the supplement works and whether you are taking a dose big enough to produce enough inflammation to jack up your cholinergic response.

Thanks.

Is this seen as a transitory die off effect? Is it logical to find a tolerable dose and then titrate gradually over time?

Also, do I understand correctly that the effects of Acetylcholine are generally seen as beneficial, in smaller amounts, but excessive amounts may pose a problem?

 

[Sidereal]

From our experiences and your choline sensitivity, I would say be very careful - start very low and increase very slowly.

I'm now rethinking every supplement I take to see if there is anything else there that might be stimulating ACh. I seem to now have more than enough.

In general I have found as I proceeded with gut modification in my haphazard, flailing-around-taking-things-essentially-at-random fashion is that every drug and supplement had to be reassessed many times along the way. When I started RS, I was taking PC/PS/PI and at that time it got me from A to B and was very helpful but after a few months the choline was making me sick and I had to stop it.

Equally, supplements that made me sick before like B12 became essential at times due to rapid depletion from whatever processes the potato starch was kicking into gear.

It was hard for me to grasp this at first, i.e. that something that could be so helpful and essential could become negative or unnecessary as the situation in the gut changed. But if you think about it, every symptom we're dealing with is due to dysbiosis until proven otherwise so it makes total sense that as you're changing that your metabolic output will change and what was low before could become toxic now.

 

[Sidereal]

Is this seen as a transitory die off effect?

I don't know if it's transitory. I suspect for some it is, for those with mild problems who are not disabled. For most I doubt it's transitory. The experience on the RS thread has generally been that of cumulative side effects unless a tolerable dose was established and breaks taken when necessary.

Is it logical to find a tolerable dose and then titrate gradually over time?

That would be the only logical way to proceed with any of this stuff, in my view. Ignore dosing instructions on anything if you have ME and do things that feel silly like opening a capsule and taking a fraction first to see what happens.

Also, do I understand correctly that the effects of Acetylcholine are generally seen as beneficial, in smaller amounts, but excessive amounts may pose a problem?

That's the case with every neurotransmitter/hormone in your body. Everything has an optimal range; too low or too high leads to problems ranging from mild symptoms to death.

For example, as many here know, chronic organophosphate poisoning from pesticides leads to an ME-like syndrome and many have been disabled by these chemicals despite official denial. This stuff has also been implicated in Gulf War syndrome. Organophosphates are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors; i.e. they inhibit the enzyme that normally breaks down acetylcholine into choline and acetate. This leads to a buildup of acetylcholine in the neuromuscular junction causing toxicity and permanent damage which can be fatal.

 

[JPV]

Thanks, again. It's such a game of "Whac-A-Mole" trying to figure all this stuff out. In the case of Miyarisan, I've gotten some real benefit from it but it's also caused other negative symptoms.

 

[Sidereal]

Thanks, again. It's such a game of "Whac-A-Mole" trying to figure all this stuff out. In the case of Miyarisan, I've gotten some real benefit from it but it's also caused other negative symptoms.

Yeah same here. I developed gastroparesis on 1-2 tabs a day. One-quarter of a tablet, on the other hand, seems to promote gastric motility. Go figure.

The dose makes the poison.

ME in general feels like whac-a-mole. You take one supplement. It makes a symptom or three better but then something else pops up and you have to deal with that. Of course the solution to the latter problem leads to some other symptom worsening or new symptom emerging. Before you know it, you've been chasing your tail for years troubleshooting your way through various supplement-induced crises but if you take stock of what's actually been happening it's mostly drama, some improvement in subjective symptoms and usually no meaningful reduction in disability.

 

[whodathunkit]

Everything that kills gram negative pathogens in the gut and therefore releases endotoxin/LPS will do this to you,

Could increased acetylcholine not caused by supplemented c.butyricum but rather by other "non-gut" supplements cause a reaction with other bacteria (or even with c.butyricum existing in the gut without supplementation) in the gut that kills gram negative bacteria?

Did that make any sense?

I'm still trying to figure out what caused the "shift" in my gut health back when I was doing the ALCAR and choline and stuff in December. I got so sick and the stuff that came out of me during the illness was so unusual and then I was so much better afterwards that I've always thought the choline changed my gut somehow but it was just an idea. Now I think there's some connection to what we're discussing but just can't grasp what since I wasn't specifically taking any gut supplements back then...I was just after the nootropic effects of the choline et al.

On a tangential note...increased diphenhydramine didn't do anything for nocturia problem. I was still up about four times. Alas. And now I just feel kind of crappy and logey and am having a hard time getting started with my day. So I won't be doing that again. It was worth a shot, though.

 

[Sidereal]

I'm still trying to figure out what caused the "shift" in my gut health back when I was doing the ALCAR and choline and stuff in December. I got so sick and the stuff that came out of me during the illness was so unusual and then I was so much better afterwards that I've always thought the choline changed my gut somehow but it was just an idea.

It's possible, I don't know. I get very strong "detox" reactions from all kinds of supplements as do many here. Truth is, nobody knows what they mean. But it does sound based on what you've written before on the RS thread that something huge shifted in your gut and you were able to lose weight. Perhaps fasting during the illness did it?

On a tangential note...increased diphenhydramine didn't do anything for nocturia problem. I was still up about four times. Alas. And now I just feel kind of crappy and logey and am having a hard time getting started with my day. So I won't be doing that again. It was worth a shot, though.

Need to rule out other causes of polyuria then.

 

[Gondwanaland]

How is your magnesium status @whodathunkit ? And B6?

 

[whodathunkit]

How is your magnesium status @whodathunkit ? And B6?

Good as far as I know. I supplement. Magnesium did me a whole lot of good about 5-6 years ago, then I seemed to stabilize with it. I never dropped it. I take p5p and it seems to do me some good.

Need to rule out other causes of polyuria then.

Plan to get my vasopressin tested within the next couple months. But I'm also going to cut back a bit on the things that increase acetylcholine, including the CB.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I just get the urge to go but almost no urine is produced during these too-frequent trips unlike before CB when litres and litres

This happens to me from time to time but I've overlooked its significance.

Me three