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Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Meanwhile, back at the camp :cool:, I've just realised I've been napping in the afternoons for the past few days. Don't know if that means anything.

Felt less dizzy today and went outside for a little while, for the first time since the weekend. Things looking up, with any luck.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Meanwhile, back at the camp :cool:, I've just realised I've been napping in the afternoons for the past few days. Don't know if that means anything.

Felt less dizzy today and went outside for a little while, for the first time since the weekend. Things looking up, with any luck.

:cool: Sometimes you gotta stop the probiotic for a few days to realise the underlying improvements you've made that are masked by the die-off. FWIW, sleepiness has usually been a good sign for me (as opposed to that sickly tired but wired feeling).
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
It's a very serious drug.
Jeez, I didn't know that. I admittedly did not look here on PR but was just on the internet. You can buy it online without a script just like other nootropics so I didn't figure it was a bigger deal than some of the other things we use around here, aside from possible suppressing of endogenous vasopressin creation (my biggest worry).

I'll search PR for some more info on it.

BTW, you're not dragging the thread into OT, I am. I take full responsibility. Sorry everyone!
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
:cool: Sometimes you gotta stop the probiotic for a few days to realise the underlying improvements you've made that are masked by the die-off. FWIW, sleepiness has usually been a good sign for me (as opposed to that sickly tired but wired feeling).

I think you might be right there - fingers crossed...
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Jeez, I didn't know that. I admittedly did not look here on PR but was just on the internet. You can buy it online without a script just like other nootropics so I didn't figure it was a bigger deal than some of the other things we use around here, aside from possible suppressing of endogenous vasopressin creation (my biggest worry).

I'll search PR for some more info on it.

BTW, you're not dragging the thread into OT, I am. I take full responsibility. Sorry everyone!

Let me put it this way, I've prescribed many many drugs to myself but I would not do it with desmo.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,945
Location
Albuquerque
FWIW, sleepiness has usually been a good sign for me (as opposed to that sickly tired but wired feeling).
Are others feeling sleepy, groggy on C.B.? I am so groggy I can barely function but since Valtrex made also made me groggy (stopped than 9 days ago and before starting C.B.) I thought it was still a hangover from Valtrex.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Are others feeling sleepy, groggy on C.B.? I am so groggy I can barely function but since Valtrex made also made me groggy (stopped than 9 days ago and before starting C.B.) I thought it was still a hangover from Valtrex.
I just started C.B. yesterday afternoon, one pill. I was noticeably more sleepy last night. @Sidereal and @adreno mentioned acetylcholine excess from C.B. and I'm wondering if this might be what it is. Since they mentioned that, I didn't take any Alpha GPC last night, but took some this morning and became quite groggy afterwards which is not normal for me. Are you taking any choline supps at all?
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
Are others feeling sleepy, groggy on C.B.? I am so groggy I can barely function but since Valtrex made also made me groggy (stopped than 9 days ago and before starting C.B.) I thought it was still a hangover from Valtrex.
Sleepy in a good way but only off and on. Previously I was constantly fighting with crushing fatigue.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,945
Location
Albuquerque
Transiently sleepy but otherwise it's increased my alertness.
Transient as in part of the day, or transient in that you were sleepy for a few days and then it passed? I will also lower my dose of LDN as that can make me sleepy/groggy too. And I am one of the hyper-awake types!
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Transient as in part of the day, or transient in that you were sleepy for a few days and then it passed? I will also lower my dose of LDN as that can make me sleepy/groggy too. And I am one of the hyper-awake types!

Unfortunately I can't remember how I felt when I started it. I was on LDN at the time and had to discontinue it. These days the CB makes me sleepy (pleasantly so) for an hour or so after taking it.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
When you say NMH, do you mean actual NMH where after some time of being upright you get crashing BP and pulse and (pre)syncope due to parasympathetic excess or do you mean orthostatic hypotension?

Well it was diagnosed as NMH on a tilt table test, and certainly then, after a nitroglycerine challenge, I did experience the symptoms you describe . It doesn't feel so precipitous when I experience it in everyday life - seems more like OI!
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Regarding the possible acetylcholine situation as a result of our efforts to displace pathogens in the gut:

The Cholinergic Anti-inflammatory Pathway: A Missing Link in Neuroimmunomodulation

Acetylcholine is an important neurotransmitter and neuromodulator in the brain. It mediates neural transmission in the ganglion synapses of both sympathetic and parasympathetic neurons, and is the principle neurotransmitter in the postganglionic parasympathetic/vagal efferent neurons. Acetylcholine acts through 2 types of receptors: muscarinic (metabotropic) (70) and nicotinic (ionotropic) (71). In addition to the brain and “wire-innervated” peripheral structures, the RNA for these receptor subtypes (muscarinic) and subunits (nicotinic) has been detected on mixed populations of lymphocytes and other immune and non-immune cytokine-producing cells (7277). Most of these cells can also produce acetylcholine (78).

We recently discovered that the α7 subunit of the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor is expressed on macrophages (16). Acetylcholine significantly and concentration-dependently decreases TNF production by endotoxin-stimulated human macrophage cultures via a post-transcriptional mechanism. Using specific muscarinic and nicotinic agonists and antagonists, we demonstrated the importance of an α-bungarotoxin-sensitive nicotinic receptor in the inhibition of TNF synthesis in vitro by acetylcholine. Acetylcholine also is effective in suppressing other endotoxin-inducible pro-inflammatory cytokines, such as IL-1β, IL-6, and IL-18, by a post-transcriptional mechanism; release of the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10 from endotoxin-stimulated macrophages is not affected by acetylcholine (16).

Because of the immunosuppressive effects of acetylcholine in vitro, we studied the possible immunonodulatory role of the parasympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system in vivo. In a rat model, vagotomy without electrical stimulation significantly increases serum and liver TNF levels in response to intravenously administered endotoxin (Figure 2A and 2B), suggesting a direct role of efferent vagus neurons in the regulation of TNF production in vivo. Augmentation of efferent vagus nerve by direct electrical stimulation significantly attenuates endotoxin-induced serum and hepatic TNF (seeFigure 2A and 2B). TNF amplifies inflammation by activating the release of pro-inflammatory mediators such as IL-1, HMGB1, nitric oxide, and reactive oxygen species (3,6). TNF also plays an essential role in endotoxin-induced shock by inhibiting cardiac output, activating microvascular thrombosis, and modulating capillary leakage syndrome (4,79). These activities of TNF are consistent with the finding that attenuation of serum TNF via cervical vagus nerve stimulation prevents hypotension and shock in animals exposed to lethal doses of endotoxin (see Figure 2C) (16). Animals subjected to vagotomy without vagus nerve stimulation develop profound shock more quickly than sham-operated animals (see Figure 2C), demonstrating a role for vagus nerve efferent signaling in maintaining immunological homeostasis. Importantly, the immunomodulatory effects of the efferent vagus nerve also play a role in localized peripheral inflammation, because electrical stimulation of the distal vagus nerve also inhibits the local inflammatory response in a standard rodent model of carrageenan-induced paw edema (69). Pretreatment with acetylcholine, muscarine, or nicotine localized within the site of inflammation also prevents the development of hind paw swelling (69). Vagal efferents are distributed throughout the reticuloendothelial system and other peripheral organs, and the brain-derived motor output through vagus efferent neurons is rapid. The cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway is therefore uniquely positioned to modulate inflammation in real time.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
CB markedly improved my fluid balance too but excess muscarinic stimulation will still cause bladder contractions and that still happens occasionally if I've overdone on the prebiotics and have cranked up the Ach too much. The difference is that now I just get the urge to go but almost no urine is produced

This happens to me from time to time but I've overlooked its significance.

Actually this whole discussion has made me realise that I am almost certainly wrong in thinking that AOR 3 did nothing much. I looked back through my notes last night and with the benefit of hindsight think that it did, but not as clear cut as with the miyarisan - it crept up on me.

Probably it was indeed the AOR 3 that caused the change in acetylcholine that necessitated stopping choline and acetyl carnitine.

I don't think CB moves out of the body. The changes it has made to my gut, both positive and negative, are still there despite not taking it for many weeks.

That would accord with my experience if I now view it in this new light. I would add that I seemed to be much more sensitive when I reintroduced.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Regarding the possible acetylcholine situation as a result of our efforts to displace pathogens in the gut:

Great find. Have no time now to study it in detail but it may explain a lot. This has been such a productive discussion for me but unfortunately I have commitments today and tomorrow which I can't escape. I would rather keep pondering all the implications.
 
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