Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

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Sidereal

Senior Member
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whodathunkit said:
@Sidereal: Kinda OT, don't want to derail the thread, but I must ask...increasing acetylcholine can cause/increase polyuria?
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Yes. Remember what happens if you take an anticholinergic med (first generation antihistamines, tricyclic antidepressants etc) that blocks the muscarinic receptors - you get urinary retention.
 
whodathunkit

whodathunkit

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Sidereal said:
Remember what happens if you take an anticholinergic med (first generation antihistamines, tricyclic antidepressants etc) that blocks the muscarinic receptors - you get urinary retention.
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LOL Remember whut? :p

Seriously, thank you. I did not know this. I've never used a tricyclic antidepressant, and my experience with diphenhydramine or stuff like it largely consists of using it to put me to sleep after a night of doing things that already left me so dehydrated I woudln't have known exactly why I wasn't peeing even if I noticed it. I consequently know almost nothing about them except what you just told me.

Increasing my acetylcholine could explain the unusual polyuria I've been experiencing lately. Sadly, I'm enjoying the effect the uridine, citicholine, and ALC are having on my mental state, but it's more important that I not wake up to pee in the night, so they're off the table at least for now. Do you know if nocturia is or can be the primary manifestation of too much acetylcholine? Weirdly, I don't seem to be having polyuria during the day, only at night.

I may go pick up some benadryl right now to see if I can get a full night's sleep, though. I've been up a lot over the past week and a half, which coincides with consistent use of the acetylcholine increasing "nootropics". Think that might help?
 
out2lunch

out2lunch

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whodathunkit said:
Weirdly, I don't seem to be having polyuria during the day, only at night.
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Have you ever been checked for sleep apnea? Nocturia can be caused by sleep apnea, as it was for me. I very rarely have to go in the middle of the night since I started on CPAP therapy.

As for antihistamines… I take them daily, rotating through several different kinds, including doxepin and Benadryl. And I absolutely cannot function without taking Mestinon along with them. My muscles fatigue too easily without it, with double vision and worsening constipation. Give me an adult dose of almost any antihistamine and you'd swear I had myasthenia gravis just by looking at my face. :grumpy:
 
whodathunkit

whodathunkit

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out2lunch said:
Have you ever been checked for sleep apnea? Nocturia can be caused by sleep apnea
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No, I haven't. There's also lot of other reasons it could be happening, including cortisol/adrenal problems and blood sugar problems, and I've licked the problem before by getting my blood sugar and general health under control. Getting checked for apnea will be my course of last resort since I don't think I wpuld be able to tolerate a CPAP.

Are you sure you don't have myasthenia gravis? Not to alarm you or anything, but my co-worker developed it after a surgery a few years back, and she's had apnea and been using a CPAP for years before the diagnosis. A timely diagnosis might have saved her some trouble and alleviated some progression of the disease.
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

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Sidereal said:
Yes. Remember what happens if you take an anticholinergic med (first generation antihistamines, tricyclic antidepressants etc) that blocks the muscarinic receptors - you get urinary retention.
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Would that include NAC? It is sold here as acough syrup, and I took 150mg today for my cough and am having an incredible edema now.
 
adreno

adreno

PR activist
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There might be something about acetylcholine. After a while on CB I stopped taking citicoline, as it was getting too much.
 
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South

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Am I the only one who is getting lost on this thread? (brain fogged state here) Are we still talking about c. butyricum, and is there some effect suspected of c. butyricum on oxalates or something to do with beta alanine?

I dial into this thread every single day, and I don't skip any messages.
 
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Sasha

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alicec said:
Absolutely. I thought my NMH had disappeared (haven't had it for maybe 6 months) but it has been reappearing on and off over the last few weeks. It hasn't been obviously linked to miyarisan but since that is one of the main things I have changed lately there is a strong suspicion.

I took one last night, had a very disturbed night and this morning I'm very lightheaded. It does seem to be the miyarisan. Have been doing 1 every second day but maybe I need to cut back.

I suspect that my sympathetic overactivity is also exacerbated by miyarisan (lots of things stir this up of course but it had been pretty good but is bothering me a bit lately).
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What do you make of the fact that your NMH may be coming back as a result of the Miyarisan? (I'm wondering if you mean it's because that's a sympathetic nervous system thing? Pardon my biological ignorance!)

I'm thinking of stopping for a few days to see if the dizziness goes away and restarting at a lower dose (thanks, @Scarecrow!). I didn't take any yesterday.

Incidentally, my need to go to the loo in the middle of the night has virtually disappeared but it's hard to pin it to a particular pre/probiotic. It happened after the VSL3, before the Miyarisan - didn't happen when I first went on PS/psyllium.

But I'm very glad it's happened, whatever did it. :)
 
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alicec

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Sidereal said:
What sorts of symptoms are you getting?
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There is a constellation of symptoms that I contend with all the time - viz brain fog, blurred vision, muscle tension and pain particularly in the back of the neck and trapezius, sleep disturbance. They wax and wane but mostly are tolerable. Many different things can make some or all worse.

Back before the miyarisan (but I realise when I think about it that I was taking AOR 3 then) they started getting a lot worse, particularly the muscle tension and pain, and as well I started feeling quite agitated. I began to suspect acetylcholine when I experimented with replacing choline bitartrate (something I had been taking in fairly high doses for quite some time and which had been very helpful) with citicholine (thinking it might be better for the brain fog). The symptoms got much worse. They improved when I stopped the choline. They improved more when I stopped acetyl carnitine.

Hence I concluded that I must be producing more acetylcholine for whatever reason and just stopped those two supplements permanently. As a result of a post on this thread a few days back I did try some choline bitartrate again but it still is a problem. So the increased acetylcholine seems to be well established. I have no idea why and it may have nothing to do with C. butyricum.

The sympathetic overactivity also comes and goes and many different things can set it off. Mostly it consists of hypertension, tachycardia, palpitations, anxiety/unease, wired but tired feeling, sleep disturbance. It seems to be quite a bit worse lately, probably linked to miyarisan. From my disturbed night last night, lightheadedness this morning and just feeling unwell all day, I conclude I am taking too much miyarisan. The sympathetic response might just be an indirect response to this.

However the main reason I say I am puzzled is that in general I feel I have deteriorated over say the past month. There could be many reasons for this and I am still floundering around trying to work out what to do next. This is part of the deterioration. Normally I have no trouble making up my mind!

In any case I think I'll back off the miyarisan for a week or so and start again on a lower dose.
 
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alicec

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Australia
South said:
Am I the only one who is getting lost on this thread? (brain fogged state here) Are we still talking about c. butyricum, and is there some effect suspected of c. butyricum on oxalates or something to do with beta alanine?
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We did wander right off topic and I am mainly responsible. I am sorry.

An oxalate related question came up and I do know something about that so I answered it. That conversation grew and morphed into beta alanine. I did think maybe we should make a new thread but thought the topic would soon exhaust itself. Unfortunately it did go on a bit.

I think maybe it has finished. If not we should definitely start a new thread.
 
Asklipia

Asklipia

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999
I have been off all probiotics for a week, not by choice, I was traveling and forgot them in the fridge!
After a week some symptoms crept back : swollen lymph nodes, pain in the knees, harder stool, slight bloating. I had thought they were gone for good, but the beastie is still there it seems, and indeed the Miyarisan disappears from the gut after a few days.
The question is, whatever is there and should not be there does not disappear after a few months of Miyarisan!
Fortunately I am back and took 12 yesterday. All is well at the moment, it took about 36 hours to come back to best situation.
 
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