Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[Gondwanaland]

The importance of the probiotics is that signalling from the gut that appropriate flora are present seems to be necessary before oxalate dumping will happen.

How does that influence endogenous production of oxalates?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@alicec does low GGT and low ALT tell me anything about it?

GAMA GLUTAMILTRANSFERASE (GAMA GT)
12,0 U/L (12 - 43 U/L)

TRANSAMINASE GLUTAMICA PIRUVICA (TGP/ALT)
18,0 U/L (14 - 36 U/L) <-- it was 13,0 back in Jan and my dr didn't know what to make out of it. We concluded that it was due to low blood volume since I had a long and intese bleeding back then. And now can't seem to recover from the ensuing anemia. I am having signs of low B1 now, and think it would be detrimental to start B6 before fixing it. I assume B1 is oxalate-sensitive? I have seen B1 supplementation recommended in the oxalate sites.

Sorry to bring my personal affairs here, but I won't see my poker-face dr until next week, and would be thankful if anyone could ahre some wisdom about it.

 

[Asklipia]

Don't know about having oxalates issues. I found out about vitamin K in a yahoo group about autism, started by Catherine Tamaro.
She was advocating the use of cabbage leaves. From that point on I started on the road of vitamin K2 with the good results I brought here.
That group has since stopped. She has disappeared from the internet as far as I can see. I have no idea what happened to her and to the people following her.
Her protocol included Vit K2 and oxalobacter formigenes. There are some very interesting posts and documents there.

 

[Sidereal]

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate yahoo groups? I can't cope with the formatting of posts and trying to search the archives is a nightmare. It's a pity that so much vital clinical wisdom on oxalates, frequent dose chelation, vitamin K2 etc. is buried in these groups instead of easily accessible forums like PR.

 

[Sidereal]

Don't know about having oxalates issues. I found out about vitamin K in a yahoo group about autism, started by Catherine Tamaro.
She was advocating the use of cabbage leaves. From that point on I started on the road of vitamin K2 with the good results I brought here.
That group has since stopped. She has disappeared from the internet as far as I can see. I have no idea what happened to her and to the people following her.
Her protocol included Vit K2 and oxalobacter formigenes. There are some very interesting posts and documents there.

Thanks for posting this, Asklipia. Just been going through her documents. Very interesting stuff. I arrived at pretty much the same conclusions thinking about this without even being aware of her work. Here's what she wrote about the low oxalate diet:

The Low Oxalate Diet (LOD) was developed by the Vulvar Pain Foundation (VPF) to ameliorate the vulvar pain that was found by Dr. Clive Solomons to be linked to the presence of oxalates. Dr. Solomons discovered the role of oxalates in triggering pain, and the assumption was made that the major source of oxalates was dietary. Over time the VPF developed a diet low in oxalates that was designed to lower dietary oxalate intake, with the goal of reducing body stores of oxalates and therefore reducing pain. The VPF’s diet has recently been presented as a solution to some of the behavioral and health problems plaguing children with autism.

The LOD as presented by the VPF and the listserve Trying_Low_Oxalates (TLO) does not contemplate or advise the use of Vitamin K. Since the purpose of LOD is to lower dietary oxalates, it discourages the consumption of leafy greens which are high in oxalates but which are a main food source of Vitamin K1. LOD does encourage the use of citrate minerals, namely calcium citrate and magnesium citrate, because citrate seems to be able to chelate calcium from the CaOx salts in the body.

The Low Oxalate Diet developers do not appear to have examined the question of what happens to the calcium freed from the calcium oxalate salts. However, at least in the case of autistic children, it is probable that they have low levels of Vitamin K and therefore low levels of carboxylated bone proteins. Thus the children presumably have little ability to manage this freed calcium, which will circulate unimpeded into the nervous system and other organs and tissues. This influx of unmanaged calcium into circulation and then into the nervous system is, I believe, the reason that so many autistic children are exhibiting adverse responses to the LOD, including seizures, behavioral regression, hyperactivity, and depression. These symptoms do not indicate that oxalates have moved from storage into circulation for transport to the disposal sites (termed “oxalate dumping” on the TLO listserve), but rather reflect the deleterious effects of an influx of unmanaged calcium into the nervous system. Some of the autistic children on the LOD begin to experience heavy nosebleeds, which could reflect an exacerbation of an existing Vitamin K deficiency since on the LOD, Vitamin K-containing vegetables have been removed from the diet. The body’s first priority use of Vitamin K is manufacture, in the liver, coagulation factors that prevent bleeding and clotting disorders. If Vitamin K is withheld from the diet to the point where nosebleeds develop, then other, less apparent problems with clotting may be present also.

The fact that people on that forum are still sick and talk about "oxalate dumping" years into the process makes me suspect she is right about calcium being flung around the body. A vitamin K2 deficiency would worsen excitotoxicity symptoms she described above since K2 is involved in the metabolism of glutamate.

I wonder what would happen if one took the calcium channel blocker nimodipine during one of these oxalate dump episodes. It was one of Dr Goldstein's top ME/CFS meds.

 

[Asklipia]

I found this US patent : Materials and methods for treating or preventing oxalate-related disease.
A method for treating, preventing, controlling, or impeding a disease in a human and non human wherein said method comprises administering to said human a composition comprising a material selected from the group consisting of oxalate-degrading microbes and oxalate-degrading enzymes. A composition for treating, preventing, controlling, or impeding a disease in a human and non human wherein said composition comprises a material selected from the group consisting of oxalate-degrading microbes and oxalate-degrading enzymes formulated in a food product for human oral consumption.

In which : wherein said oxalate-degrading enzymes are derived from bacteria of the group consisting of Clostridium, Pseudomonas, and oxalobacter.

Now would this explain one of the ways our dear C. butyricum is proving so useful? Is it one of the clostridia that degrades oxalates?

 

[whodathunkit]

Beta-alanine causes me extreme tingling especially in the face. Weird sensation, analogous to being stabbed with little shards of glass, although I always analogized it to using a short-needle dermaroller all over my face, very quickly. From what I understand the tingling is pretty common. Is this becuase of its tendency to bind oxalates?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Here oxalates are addressed as just a problem for kidney stones:
http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v83/n6/pdf/ki201341a.pdf

A new era in the treatment of calcium oxalate stones?
Ognen Ivanovski1 and Tilman B. Drüeke2
Calcium oxalate (CaOx) is the most prevalent type of kidney stone. The amount of oxalate excreted in the urine is a major risk factor for CaOx stone formation. The study by Siener et al. makes a substantial contribution to our understanding of how Oxalobacter formigenes affects oxalate metabolism and excretion in humans and hence influences the risk of developing CaOx kidney stones.

Active colonization/recolonization with O. formigenes represents an attractive strategy to prevent or limit renal CaOx crystal synthesis, aggregation, and cell adherence with eventual stone formation. Antibiotic therapy may contribute to the loss of this organism from the colonic microbiota and thereby increase the rate of stone formation. Regrettably, the use of the bacterium as a probiotic is in the early stages of investigation. The results of a recent trial in primary hyperoxaluria patients show promise in this regard.14 The authors demonstrated that O. formigenes treatment is safe, but on follow-up, none of the patients had evidence of permanent colonization. We definitely need more information on the natural history of the bacterium in human beings, the factors governing persistent colonization, and the bacterium’s relation to first and/or recurrent CaOx stone episodes. Presently available evidence suggests that in the future, anaerobic colonic bacteria such as O. formigenes may find therapeutic and prophylactic applications in patients with recurrent CaOx nephrolithiasis. More research is clearly needed.

It is amazing how scientists and researchers can be short sighted

Merck makes fortunes around the world selling Florastor, if at least they would have some interest in O. formigenes...
I only have access to S. boulardii in my country thanks to Merck. Although I suspect that boulardii might antagonise Clostridia...

 

[Sushi]

Going back to C. B. and dosing, here is what I am doing. Inviting all comments on whether this looks like a workable plan.

I am continuing at 1/4 pill (5th day) as I had a bit of gastro-grumbling even at that dose. I am taking it about 5 pm with a cocktail of 1/2 teas potato starch, 1/2 teas of psyllium, 1 packet of VSL-3, some chlorophyll (just for good measure), and am adding my dose of LDN at that time just because I don't want it to interfere with the bedtime California Poppy. This is a couple hours before dinner.

Comments?

 

[alicec]

How does that influence endogenous production of oxalates?

It doesn't. It is simply a way to help the body rid itself of stored oxalate whether from dietary or endogenous sources.

 

[alicec]

does low GGT and low ALT tell me anything about it?

No connection that I know of.

I am no expert but I don't think low GGT and ALT is an issue. These enzymes are used as markers of liver function and need to be VERY elevated before you would really worry. Slight elevation is common and of no real concern. If it persisted you might follow up.

Some reference ranges start GGT from 0 so I can't see that your value of 12 is anything other than normal.

I assume B1 is oxalate-sensitive? I have seen B1 supplementation recommended in the oxalate sites.

Yes it is.

 

[dmholmes]

My CB arrived, took 2 weeks.

 

[alicec]

It seems there is a product by an Indian pharmaceutical company already on the market? This study used it:

Thanks for finding that. I haven't been following the oxalate stuff for a while - I figured it was just one element of a much complicated picture and I had gone as far as I could with it. I'll try to track down that probiotic and give it a try. I do tolerate (or used to) those Lactobacillus species.

The fact that people on that forum are still sick and talk about "oxalate dumping" years into the process makes me suspect she is right about calcium being flung around the body. A vitamin K2 deficiency would worsen excitotoxicity symptoms she described above since K2 is involved in the metabolism of glutamate.

For what its worth I'll attach two documents from Susan Owens specifically in response to some of Catherine Tomaro's ideas. It wasn't anything about vit K that worried her, more the advocacy of eating high oxalate foods like spinach. Other high vit K2 greens which are low ox (such as turnip greens) are available and Susan quoted studies that compared the effects of both types of greens.

Having said that I agree that people tend to get stuck in their own grooves. I was unaware of Catherine Tomaro but of my own accord came to implement some of what I understand she advocated. Calcium supplementation is a definite no-no for me, as is any form of citrate. I have been taking vit K2 (mk 4) for some time and think it has been helpful.

Now would this explain one of the ways our dear C. butyricum is proving so useful? Is it one of the clostridia that degrades oxalates?

Great find - I'm going to try to find out more. Haven't been keeping up with anything about oxalates - maybe there is more useful stuff to be found.

Beta-alanine causes me extreme tingling especially in the face. Weird sensation, analogous to being stabbed with little shards of glass, although I always analogized it to using a short-needle dermaroller all over my face, very quickly. From what I understand the tingling is pretty common. Is this becuase of its tendency to bind oxalates?

Could be. What you describe sounds very like what several people on the low ox group described for oxalate dumping via the skin route, something I never experienced.

 

[alicec]

Going back to C. B. and dosing, here is what I am doing. Inviting all comments on whether this looks like a workable plan.

You are right - we are way off track!

Looks like a good plan to me.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Beta-alanine causes me extreme tingling especially in the face. Weird sensation, analogous to being stabbed with little shards of glass, although I always analogized it to using a short-needle dermaroller all over my face, very quickly. From what I understand the tingling is pretty common. Is this becuase of its tendency to bind oxalates?

I had that exactly from gluten after warfarin. Plus an awful skin. Thankfully it is gone 70% from going gluten free and the rest with a round of Flagyl, which puzzles me.

 

[Sidereal]

For what its worth I'll attach two documents from Susan Owens specifically in response to some of Catherine Tomaro's ideas. It wasn't anything about vit K that worried her, more the advocacy of eating high oxalate foods like spinach. Other high vit K2 greens which are low ox (such as turnip greens) are available and Susan quoted studies that compared the effects of both types of greens.

Having said that I agree that people tend to get stuck in their own grooves. I was unaware of Catherine Tomaro but of my own accord came to implement some of what I understand she advocated. Calcium supplementation is a definite no-no for me, as is any form of citrate. I have been taking vit K2 (mk 4) for some time and think it has been helpful.

Thanks for posting those rebuttals. I've been on a crash course these past few days. I was peripherally aware of Owens for years but never gave her ideas much consideration (in hindsight, I should have) because her group recommends things that are contraindicated in ME/CFS - calcium, citrate, glutathione, arginine, low carb diet, etc.

Regarding B6, I am skeptical that this is a limiting factor for those who take prebiotics. I don't know if this has been your experience, @alicec (you may have been supplementing B6 before you started on RS?) but for what it's worth I take no vitamin supplements and the first thing I noticed on the potato starch was a massive and immediate increase in B6 production. Very vivid movie-like dreams and recall. It gave me neuropathy just like B6 supplements do (thanks to B2 deficiency which I can't treat since even tiny amounts of B2 cause massive detox, iron dumping and paradoxically an even bigger B2 deficiency). Yet I still got oxalate galore later on with prebiotics.

The futile cycling she describes in this paper is very interesting and very much in line with what I experienced on interventions that try to force energy production: ketogenic diet and prebiotics.

 

[Sidereal]

Beta-alanine causes me extreme tingling especially in the face. Weird sensation, analogous to being stabbed with little shards of glass, although I always analogized it to using a short-needle dermaroller all over my face, very quickly. From what I understand the tingling is pretty common. Is this becuase of its tendency to bind oxalates?

I saw a warning about this when I was buying beta alanine the other day. It said to expect tingling when you first start this supplement. I guess it does mobilise this stuff.

 

[mariovitali]

I received a bottle of AOR Probiotics and went through the experiences of others. It appears to me that the results are somewhat mixed.

Answers to the following questions would be very helpful because i would like to give the CB theory a try :


-What is the consensus regarding Miyarisan / AOR Probiotics?
-Which dose appears to be more beneficial?
-How much time we should wait to see any benefits?
-Are there any common side effects/symptoms that we should be aware of?

 

[Asklipia]

It seems there is a product by an Indian pharmaceutical company already on the market? This study used it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25645091

Curiously, they only compared oxalate excretion over time in the two groups (the comparator arm was potassum + magnesium citrate) and didn't report time x group interaction or group differences post-treatment. I presume because they weren't statistically significant? How does this stuff get published?

Anyway, the product seems to contain Oxalobacter, L. acidophilus, L. rhamnosus and B. lactis. And FOS.

I have found a company useful for buying things from India unavailable otherwise :
yourmaninindia.

 

[Sasha]

Just a reminder that this poll exists, though a bit early in the day for some of us (you need to have been on CB for at least two weeks):

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-experience-with-c-butyricum-miyarisan.37555/

I've been on it for about that now but have got some bug, I think, so I'm not going to do the poll yet.