Carnivore Diet

[GreenEdge]

 

[Jo86]

@GreenEdge thank you for your reply and video links. Your reply made sense. I'm not so much craving sugar right now as I'm using the fruit as a crutch, so as to not find my diet too redundant too quickly. I'm having like 3-4 eggs for lunch with a bunch of either bacon, cheese (and like, a peach or two apricots, maybe an apple)... and then some type of meat at night. And a plain yogurt.

If I cut out the fruit, I'm left with little and I'm afraid I'll get bored too quickly, although I might have to anyways, and maybe it won't be that boring.

The rat experiment 4min was very good (cocaine vs sugar), and I'll watch the last link you posted on fruit later as I'm watching this currently (relevant to this thread - two very carnivorous doctors):

 

[GreenEdge]

.., but every time I fail to stick to it for longer than 3-4 days - my cravings for carbs are way too hard to withstand.

Keep trying, it will get easier.

Initial steps:

1. Remove flavored or sweetened drinks and juices.
2. Cut back on honey, sugar and artificial sweeteners.
3. Increase animal based protein: meat and eggs.
4. Remove snack foods.
5. Remove cereals and grains (including products made with flour).
6. Eat more meat and veg (eg. steamed cretaceous vegetables).
7. Remove vegetable seed oils. Instead cook with coconut oil or animals fats.
8. ....

 

[GreenEdge]

May I ask if you eat greens at all on this diet?

I haven't eaten any plant foods in the last 10 months except coconut oil and cream, very weak coffee and chocolate on a few occasions. I'm now over the chocolate cravings - last 3 times I had it, muscle pain returned and I felt awful. I find it's just not worth it anymore.

Coffee has the same effect on me, but I find if I keep consumption very low I can get away with it and still have almost no muscle pain no matter how hard I workout. I will cut out coffee eventually. Like chocolate, I feel better when I totally abstain from it. I now usually prefer plain hot water anyway - so my behavior is changing (I'm learning).

 

[GreenEdge]

I've discontinued most supplements because carnivore provides all the nutrients we need. However, I have found I still benefit from taking these:

• Thiamine (TTFD) aka Allithiamine - to treat Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency.
• Niacin (B3) - is an efficient NAD+ booster in humans and improves muscle strength. It also supports (speeds up) tissue growth and repair.
• TMG - it provides methyl groups to replace what B3 depletes.
• N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) - when combined with glycine (in TMG) our bodies produce an anti-oxidant called Glutathione.

Removal of almost all plant material from carnivore diet results in almost no muscle pain no matter how hard I train. Being able to workout harder creates more muscle stimulus, so now I'm gaining muscle.

I've found 2 supplements that raise exercise tolerance:

• Alpha-ketoglutarate (AKG) is a key molecule in the Krebs cycle determining the overall rate of the citric acid cycle of the organism. It helps to maintain cellular energy and promotes cell renewal. It's a nitrogen scavenger and a source of glutamate and glutamine that stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein degradation in muscles.
  
  I take the argenine form (AAKG) and it tastes awful. To mask the taste, I place a tablespoon of yogurt in my mouth and then immediately take half a heaped teaspoon of AAKG powder and mix it with the yogurt.
  
  AKG enables me to workout harder. It promotes strength and muscle mass.
  
  
• Beta Alanine - neutralizes lactic acid build up. That heavy fatigued feeling.
  Best taken before exercise. The effect only lasts a few hours and when it wears off the fatigued feeling is much worse, so I'm experimenting with taking it every few hours until that lactic acid feeling stays away. However, I'm experiencing an increase in muscle cramps?
  
  I take about half a flat teaspoon with AKG when required.

The best exercise for improving fitness and reducing visceral fat is sprinting (HIIT).
For ME/CFS to make evolutionary sense: I theorize that it is pushing us to stop exercise and fast (to enable proper maintenance and restoration of our digestive system)? An alternative theory would be that even when sick, our ability to sprint is conserved in order to be able to continue to hunt and survive?
If the later is true:
- To help condition your body for sprinting, start with jumping.
- To prepare for jumping, start with squats, split lunges and calf raises.


I also find medicinal cannabis oil is beneficial:

• THC helps treat anxiety and depression. The 'muscle' anxiety I often get - even thou I don't feel stressed. Maybe THC is as an antidote to past use of anti-anxiety medicine?
  
  THC seems to awaken and energize the nervous system; when combined with a stimulus (eg. physical exercise) it helps retrain the nervous system.
  
  
• CBD helps calm the nervous system and dampen the effect of THC (making it comfortable). It's also a better muscle relaxant than western medicines.

Likely cause of ME/CFS - Vitamin B1 deficiency caused by the virus that preceded it ?
Thiamine (B1) supports nervous system repair while THC helps restore function (retrain). Carnivore diet + AKG and Beta Alanine helps support exercise tolerance.

 

[Jo86]

Good video.
He's not trying to demonize the food in question (fruit) but gives facts about why it's not as recommendable as it's thought to be.

An interesting part:
fruit (and carbs at large) are known to make you hungrier because they inhibit leptin (which signals you're full) and stimulate ghrelin (which signals you're hungry). But fruit does it because the plant is making its fruit (which contains the seeds) as attractive as possible (making it shiny, colorful...) and wants you to eat as much as possible, to spread its seed, therefor it must've evolved to make its fruit as delicious as possible to animals that would want to feast on fruit as much as possible.

 

[GreenEdge]

Good video.
He's not trying to demonize the food in question (fruit) but gives facts about why it's not as recommendable as it's thought to be.

Dr. Gary Fettke lost his medical license in 2016 and it took him 2 years to win it back.
See: AHPRA lifts dietary advice ban on surgeon Gary Fettke.

Dr. Gary Fettke tells his story in this video interview:

The origins of the anti-meat message with Dr. Gary Fettke — Diet Doctor Podcast (55 min)
They tried to silence him simply for trying to help his patients eat better and improve their health. Fortunately they failed. Now Dr. Fettke, along with his wife Belinda, has made it his mission to uncover the truth behind the anti-meat establishment and much of what he has discovered is shocking. He continues to work as an orthopdeic surgeon, but he sees a better way to helping those who are obese or suffer from diabetes- LCHF. Or as he calls it, real food nutrition. He is outspoken, witty and a true low carb hero.

But what's more interesting is what Gary's wife Belinda Fettke uncovered:
Belinda Fettke - Nutrition Science - How did we get here? May 2020 (58 min)

 

[GreenEdge]

An interesting part:
fruit (and carbs at large) are known to make you hungrier because they inhibit leptin (which signals you're full) and stimulate ghrelin (which signals you're hungry). But fruit does it because the plant is making its fruit (which contains the seeds) as attractive as possible (making it shiny, colorful...) and wants you to eat as much as possible, to spread its seed, therefor it must've evolved to make its fruit as delicious as possible to animals that would want to feast on fruit as much as possible.

Yes, it's interesting how plants (in their evolution) have learnt to utilize animals for the transport of their seeds. The seeds are heavily defended in order to pass through an animals digestive tract and remain intact. The oil in seeds is there as an anti-freeze to survive winter.

Humans in their ignorance of plant toxins:

• Grind up seeds to make flour and then turn that into bread, cake and biscuits.
• Extract and concentrate oil from seeds to make 'vegetable' oils.

See: Nina Teicholz - Vegetable Oils: The Untold Story and the US Dietary Guidelines
Or read her book: The Big Fat Surprise

 

[Jo86]

Yes, it's interesting how plants (in their evolution) have learnt to utilize animals for the transport of their seeds. The seeds are heavily defended in order to pass through an animals digestive tract and remain intact. The oil in seeds is there as an anti-freeze to survive winter.

Humans in their ignorance of plant toxins:

• Grind up seeds to make flour and then turn that into bread, cake and biscuits.
• Extract and concentrate oil from seeds to make 'vegetable' oils.

See: Nina Teicholz - Vegetable Oils: The Untold Story and the US Dietary Guidelines
Or read her book: The Big Fat Surprise

will watch this one, thx GreenEdge.

I'm growing more and more hostile towards the entire established medical system. I can't believe certain dieticians and their recommendations, and their inability to hear a different version to their beliefs. They would swear what they believe is "scientific", like, indisputable facts, when we know nutrition science changes every year.

First, a long long time ago, fat was seen as a healthy thing, "eat the fat off the meat, it's good for you". then it got demonized. Then they started the saturated bad vs unsaturated good trend. Now they're saying saturated aren't all bad and you can have 12% of your daily intake (as butter or meat fat or wtvr). And now, there's a legion of intelligent doctors who are saying it's saturated fats that are good and the other ones that are bad, bad because they cause inflammation and oxidative stress. The truth is we're trying our best but nobody knows for sure, and what's certain, is everything is contestable, and especially the established notions about what's ok and isn't.

The idea grains are totally fine for humans is, at very least, surprising, but what it is not at all, is obvious, the way they're painting it. A carb-heavy part of a plant, that you need to process like crazy to make it into a powder (remove parts, grind it, crush it...), and then take that powder and mix it with other ingredients... with fiber in it (who decided fiber was essential for humans ?)... to make bread or pasta... and now you can eat it. Uhm. DOUBT.

 

[datadragon]

The carnivore diet is a restrictive diet that only includes meat, fish, and other animal foods like eggs and certain dairy products. It excludes all other foods, including fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts, and seeds.

Its proponents also recommend eliminating or limiting dairy intake to foods that are low in lactose — a sugar found in milk and dairy products — such as butter and hard cheeses.

One reason might be helping is that high-fat dairy is a good source of butyrate. Grass Fed Butter is one of the best sources of butyrate and to lesser extent, other foods that contain some dairy fat. The fattier the food, the more butyrate it will have, so whole organic or raw milk has more than skim milk (and whole has been demonized), and heavy cream has more than either. Its one of the reasons why full-fat dairy is actually associated with lower BMI. Organic Cheese and Yogurt as well. Seems many tolerate A2 milk better than A1 as well and commercial milk likely has little grass access. Red Meat is a particularly great source of zinc, but ample amounts are found in all kinds of meat, including beef, lamb, and pork which also may help restore the gut barrier and butyrate levels. In later stages ME/CFS cant make butyrate or energy due to the loss of Acetyl-CoA. a 100-gram (3.5-ounce) serving of raw ground beef contains 4.79 mg of zinc, which is 43.5% of the Daily Value (DV) for men and 59.9% of the DV for women https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/174030/nutrients

a September 2018 study in Food Control:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S095671351830166X

a June 2016 review in ‌Neuroscience Letters
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394016300775?via=ihub

 

[Vladimir]

I haven't eaten any plant foods in the last 10 months except coconut oil and cream, very weak coffee and chocolate on a few occasions. I'm now over the chocolate cravings - last 3 times I had it, muscle pain returned and I felt awful. I find it's just not worth it anymore.

Coffee has the same effect on me, but I find if I keep consumption very low I can get away with it and still have almost no muscle pain no matter how hard I workout. I will cut out coffee eventually. Like chocolate, I feel better when I totally abstain from it. I now usually prefer plain hot water anyway - so my behavior is changing (I'm learning).

Thank you for sharing so many interesting details.

Do you check your LDL levels? I noticed that when I eat too much butter it elevates my LDL. I wonder if pure carnivore diet would do the same to me or there is something special about removing all carbs that keeps your LDL in range...

 

[GreenEdge]

Do you check your LDL levels? I noticed that when I eat too much butter it elevates my LDL. I wonder if pure carnivore diet would do the same to me or there is something special about removing all carbs that keeps your LDL in range...

I'm not at all worried about LDL.

Listen to author and nutritionist Dr. Zoe Harcombe debunk the cholesterol myth:
Nutritional nuggets to combat conventional dietary guidelines (@20:38)

 

[Vladimir]

I'm not at all worried about LDL.

Listen to Dr. Zoe Harcombe debunk the cholesterol myth:
Nutritional nuggets to combat conventional dietary guidelines (@20:38)

View attachment 51867

Thanks, I watched the video from the time code but could not find where she mentions LDL there.

From what I've learnt so far, it is better to keep your LDL in place I am trying to form my opinion based on published studies like this one rather than claims for the individual specialists who go against the mainstream medical science:

https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(20)32233-9/fulltext

What alleviates my worries regarding LDL is the new notion in medical community that it is the high triglycerides levels what really causes CHD, and mine is always on the lowest end of the normal range

Anyway, my experience with various diets 100% confirms that carnivore products are the only ones that my body can process without making me feel worse than before eating.

Olive oil, rice, potato, cucumbers, tomatoes, coffee and some greens - are fine too if not overeaten.

But damn, it is hard to stick to that limited list for longer than 3-5 days

 

[GreenEdge]

What alleviates my worries regarding LDL is the new notion in medical community that it is the high triglycerides levels what really causes CHD, and mine is always on the lowest end of the normal range

Yes, high triglycerides has always been one of the best markers for CHD, followed by low HDL. Knowledgeable doctors use the ratio: Triglycerides : HDL.

Triglyceride to HDL Ratio - Healthycell
A ratio of 2:1 or less is considered ideal. So, if your triglyceride level is 100 mg/dL, your HDL should be 50 mg/dL. A ratio of 4:1 is considered high, and a ratio of 6:1 or more is considered extremely high and indicates an elevated risk of heart attack and stroke.

Unless you look at LDL particle size, LDL on it's own is an unreliable marker for CHD. Small dense LDL is the real culprit but analyzing particle size is expensive. To prevent unnecessary testing, this flow chart indicates when to consider LDL particle size analysis:

The above chart came from video: Dr. Paul Mason - 'The truth about high cholesterol'

I'm not going to provide you with links to the clinical trial results referred to in the video's I bring to your attention, or tell you how to read a clinical trial paper. You need to do your own research and discover for yourself, because only you can convince yourself what's fact and what's fiction.

The reason your doctor focuses on LDL is because LDL responds to saturated fat intake. Meat is the only substance known to man that can lead us away from our addiction to processed foods; that makes it the enemy of the food industry. So the food industry funds most nutrition studies in order to obfuscate and drown out the real science.

Meat is what humans evolved to eat, so it's a powerful healer. That makes it the enemy of the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry backs the food industry that influences dietitians / nutrition science to keep us fooled and fed processed foods which act as a slow acting poison that goes unnoticed and undetected. Foods that ensure you become another customer for more of their drugs.

 

[Jo86]

The reason your doctor focuses on LDL is because LDL responds to saturated fat intake. Meat is the only substance known to man that can lead us away from our addiction to processed foods; that makes it the enemy of the food industry. So the food industry funds most nutrition studies in order to obfuscate and drown out the real science.

Meat is what humans evolved to eat, so it's a powerful healer. That makes it the enemy of the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry backs the food industry that influences dietitians / nutrition science to keep us fooled and fed processed foods which act as a slow acting poison that goes unnoticed and undetected. Foods that ensure you become another customer for more of their drugs.

Playing devil's advocate: but why would the food industries demonize sat fats ? I mean they're very popular and used all over in junk and processed foods. Bacon butter etc... why would the food industries emphasize the whole "unsaturated fats are super healthy" narrative, are vegetable oils that much more profitable ?

 

[GreenEdge]

Playing devil's advocate: but why would the food industries demonize sat fats ?

Originally, saturated fat was demonized by USDA to keep coconut and palm oil out of the vegetable oil market. Coconut and palm oil are much cheaper to produce and would have impacted US agriculture. Have you noticed that the food pyramid and dietary guidelines are produced by department of agriculture (USDA)? The messaging of what we should eat is to protect US agriculture.

Edit: Then in the 80's saturated fat was used to convince us to use margarine instead of butter. It was a marketing campaign for margarine, a substance made from a partially hydrogenated vegetable oil - containing trans fats. Trans fats were banned in 2018 (40 years later).

are vegetable oils that much more profitable ?

Yes, for example; margarine is cheaper to produce than butter.

Now, it is used to demonize any food eg. junk food.

 

[Jo86]

Dairy is >50% saturated fat. By making us consume less dairy, meat becomes more expensive.

I'm following so far and what you're saying correlates with things I've read before, but could you expand on this ?

 

[GreenEdge]

I'm following so far and what you're saying correlates with things I've read before, but could you expand on this ?

Whoops, they're my own thoughts (at 3:00 am) when I couldn't recall why it was done. Sorry, now removed and correct explanation added - see edited post.

 

[GreenEdge]

Today, products containing trans fats must have less than 0.5% ( < 0.5g / 100g ).

In chemical analysis there's a minimum detection level. When something is not detected you can never be sure it's zero.

 

[GreenEdge]

A quick update from me
I have gravitated back to the lion diet. I'm not deliberately being strict carnivore, that's now what my body wants (99% top side beef roast). I find top side is tender and easy to chew when eaten raw. I braze the outside to make sure it's safe to eat raw. Top side is quite lean and dry so I add suet (beef fat raw and frozen) according to taste which for me is @ about 1/4 the volume of the meat. That's as much fat as I can handle at the moment. If I try to eat more fat I start to get diarrhea.

To compare diets (eg. keto and carnivore) alternate each month and you'll soon realize which is best for you. But, you need to be strict one or the other for a full 30 days to really gauge how your body responds to each. Keep alternating until you find which is best for you.

Possible in-site and good news
Between 6-11 months ago I experienced 3 remissions for the first time and I now think that was mostly the result of trying to adhere to the lion diet. The same pattern is now happening again and I'm hopeful another complete remission is just days away.

Last week I was wanting to try fasting but each day I became more and more hungry, so I continued eating and I was surprised by how much meat and additional fat I was eating. Then last Sunday after I bought meat the pain in my stomach which was both hungry plus a raw/inflamed feeling changed to being just raw/inflamed. The hunger disappeared so I didn't eat and the next morning I had explosive diarrhea and I have been fine ever since. Stomach pain has reduced since then but I'm still not hungry so I won't be eating again until hunger returns. I'm now on day 4 of a long fast and I'm giving the body all the time it needs to heal my inflamed stomach. I'm sure hunger will return as soon as the healing is complete.

This explains a lot because many like me have expressed becoming unusually hungry before a crash. We mistake the increased pain as being really hungry when it's probably normal hunger plus inflammation. The extra eating of an inflammatory diet probably makes the problem worse and we then crash. The lion diet is the least inflammatory diet one can maintain and still get all the nutrition the body requires.

This may be the solution we have all been searching for.