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Carnivore Diet

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
I've been meaning to ask; are any of you that are practicing the Carnivore diet, female?
Not ME patients, but Amber O'Hearn and Mikhaila Peterson are well known carnivores in the Keto community that have defeated serious autoimmune diseases. You'll easily find homepages and such via Google, and videos on Youtube. Some good videos in the "low carb down under" channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/lowcarbdownunder/videos).

On https://www.ketogenicforums.com/ are carnivores of both sexes. But I found discussions there often a bit tiresome, as many of the participants there are fairly dogmatic and won't accept that anything but carnivore diet (or keto diet) can be healthy.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646
Not ME patients, but Amber O'Hearn and Mikhaila Peterson are well known carnivores in the Keto community that have defeated serious autoimmune diseases. You'll easily find homepages and such via Google, and videos on Youtube. Some good videos in the "low carb down under" channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/lowcarbdownunder/videos).

On https://www.ketogenicforums.com/ are carnivores of both sexes. But I found discussions there often a bit tiresome, as many of the participants there are fairly dogmatic and won't accept that anything but carnivore diet (or keto diet) can be healthy.
Thank you for the links! I had heard of Mikhaila, but not Amber. And for the heads up about ketogenic. I find it counter productive to get into debates about things, and would rather find practical advice.
 
Messages
71
Location
France
I often wonder if there is more to the sugar and carb cravings. Some days I mourn the loss as if it were a dear friend or even a family member. I feel like I have lost an intrinsic part of myself when I don't go in the kitchen and bake some cookies or a cake. Sugar and carbs have been my comfort foods for so long I am quite lost without them!
It could be from parasites. They can cause serious carbs cravings! There are a few stories of people going from bedbound to functional, when egtting rid of parasites. I have commented about it on Ronagrenade's thread here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/from-zero-to-hero-thread.82036/
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646
Yesterday and today I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel! Slightly increased energy and mood, for starters. When I first started Carnivore, I tried to jump in feet first. Then I backed off and re-introduced some things back into my diet. Then I very slowly started tapering off healthy carbs, like sprouted grain bread, and veggies. Now I have steamed veggies twice a week, but lean pretty heavily towards all protein meals. I am in ketosis about 75% of the time. I still have A2 milk sometimes, and sour cream.

I think my mistake before was trying to do it all of a sudden. It is going much smoother this time around! Weight is coming off very slowly, something like a pound every two weeks, which is fine with me. I tried pork belly in my new air fryer and may be hooked permanently, lol.
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
543
Location
Brisbane, Australia
This topic is for offering support and sharing experiences for people with ME/CFIDS who have tried or are currently on a Carnivore diet. This thread is not for debating the merits of the Carnivore diet. Please refrain from doing so.
This thread contains valuable information. I'd like to add the following:

I like this persons Introduction to Carnivore Diet, because it’s concise and includes important info for a novice.

Another thing I see as important but rarely talked about. People do well whilst they have plenty of body fat to loose. But when body fat gets below a certain level the body may preserve the remaining fat and start breaking down muscle, because maintaining muscle mass consumes energy (energy conservation) or because accessing older fat stores is more difficult due to lost blood vessels. You start to feel unwell with low energy and mood. The solution to this problem is to increase your fat intake.

EDIT: Added this video from 15 year keto expert: How To Thrive On a High-Fat/Moderate Protein Carnivore Diet
 
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HABS93

Senior Member
Messages
485
@GreenEdge 1000% I'm thriving pretty well now. But I definitely thought more protien was the way to go. Learned te hard way but upping my fat too 120grams and I weigh 140 made me satiated and I can work 12 hours and do things after work.

Also noticed by 120 days my joint pain disappeared. My eyes still have protiens floating around but I'm scared to fast because ive had trouble gaining weight my entire life and dont want to eat my muscles
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,843
@GreenEdge 1000% I'm thriving pretty well now. But I definitely thought more protien was the way to go. Learned te hard way but upping my fat too 120grams and I weigh 140 made me satiated and I can work 12 hours and do things after work.

Also noticed by 120 days my joint pain disappeared. My eyes still have protiens floating around but I'm scared to fast because ive had trouble gaining weight my entire life and dont want to eat my muscles

My brother said he had good luck with bromelain and/or serrapeptase for floaters. I think he said Dr. Berg recommended it.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
I often wonder if there is more to the sugar and carb cravings. Some days I mourn the loss as if it were a dear friend or even a family member. I feel like I have lost an intrinsic part of myself when I don't go in the kitchen and bake some cookies or a cake. Sugar and carbs have been my comfort foods for so long I am quite lost without them!
That's how I felt when I first quit smoking! I felt like I had lost my best friend. I had to repeat to myself, literally, over and over, that cigarettes were not my friend though I felt otherwise. They were there for me no matter what for so many years and I didn't know how I was going to function without them. I also had to remind myself that I was not born smoking! lol That I had survived just fine up to the age of 15 when I started (started young, yes, we all did). And then there was the physical withdrawal from nicotine which was a b***h - But I'm so glad I stuck it out (quitting) - ended up using nicorette gum which let me taper slowly and that worked.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646
@Mary: I have heard that quitting smoking is very difficult, so congrats on your success! I am still struggling with my sugar addiction, but I am also realizing that I have more control than I realize. I am currently trying to figure out how much fat can give me the satiety that I need.
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
543
Location
Brisbane, Australia
@HABS93 I'm thriving pretty well too. This last week I've regained the 3kg I lost the week before. I feel a little off now but I've had some very good days where I felt normal. I'm not sure if it was the increased fat intake or the forced long fast that did it.

From what I've been learning from carnivore diet videos, it sounds like we may need:
  • a zero carb carnivore 'Lion' diet to minimize gut inflammation.
  • increased animal fat intake to cure constipation.
  • plus several long fasts to give our leaky guts time to heal.
I also learnt that significant quantities of fat soluble vitamins (A,D,E,K2) are only found in animal fats.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646
@GreenEdge 1000% I'm thriving pretty well now. But I definitely thought more protien was the way to go. Learned te hard way but upping my fat too 120grams and I weigh 140 made me satiated and I can work 12 hours and do things after work.

Also noticed by 120 days my joint pain disappeared. My eyes still have protiens floating around but I'm scared to fast because ive had trouble gaining weight my entire life and dont want to eat my muscles
I had the worst stiffness and joint pain in both shoulders, and the other day I realized that I was reaching a high shelf with no stiffness or discomfort. It wasn't until I read this post that I made the connection.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,843
I had the worst stiffness and joint pain in both shoulders, and the other day I realized that I was reaching a high shelf with no stiffness or discomfort. It wasn't until I read this post that I made the connection.

Are you doing carnivore, too?
 
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belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,646
Are you doing carnivore, too?
I was, for about six months. I couldn't tolerate full carnivore, so I went with just cutting out most carbs. I think the real culprit in my joint pain was certain oils, which have been shown to cause inflammation. Now that I only consume saturated fats, and absolutely no prepared or convenience foods,I think I can attribute that to less joint pain.

BTW, I am the OP of this topic.:)
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
543
Location
Brisbane, Australia
This appears to be really important lost knowledge. Source: https://drjockers.com/eating-many-muscle-meats/
The whole article is about 4 times the length as below.

Long story short: If you eat only muscle meats you may need to supplement with Glycine.

Edit: I would suggest also Acytal-L-Carnitine, together they may lower homocysteine and prevent alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, stroke and diabetes.
Edit 2: You may already have supplements containing Glycine, eg. TMG (Trimethylglycine (aka. Betaine)) and Magnesium Glycinate.

Here are some snippets from above source:
The Nutritional Value of Muscle Meats
Lean muscle meats are rich in protein, zinc, vitamin B12, iron and choline. Protein is a very important compound in physiology and is vital to life. Animal meat is one of the best sources of complete protein with the full array of amino acids. The amino acid makeup of muscle meats is very high in tryptophan and methionine and very low in glycine (5).

Organ meats and bone broth protein are the opposite in that they are high in glycine but low in methionine. A diet high in muscle meats, but low in bone broth and organ meats will cause an improper methionine to glycine ratio. This imbalance depletes the body of B vitamins and trace minerals.

High methionine and tryptophan can interfere with B6 absorption and drain the body of its reserves of other key methylating agents such as riboflavin (B2), folate, zinc and B12. This can lead to an increase inflammation, altered genetic experession and poor detoxification.

Methionine is a precurser to homocysteine and the more methionine we get in our diet, the more homocysteine our body would have the ability to produce (6). Homocysteine is an inflammatory protein that is associated with cardiovascular disease, stroke and diabetes when it’s levels are above 6.3 umol/L (7).

The Amino Acid Imbalances:
Let’s do a quick run through on the amino acid imbalances involved with eating a diet high in muscle meats and low in cartilaginous regions of animals. These imbalances have negative health consequences associated with them.

Elevated Methionine: Glycine ratio
Glycine is very important for phase II liver detoxification. Excessive An elevated methionine: glycine ratio can lead to elevated homocysteine levels and poor liver detoxification. Glycine is also an anti-inflammatory compound so low levels would increase whole body inflammation (9).

Glycine also binds to glycine receptors in the spinal cord where it calms down the nervous system and reduces anxiety, irritability and insomnia (10).

Elevated Tryptophan: Glycine ratio
Chronically elevated tryptophan to glycine ratios can cause an overproduction of serotonin and melatonin after eating. This can lead to drowsiness and fatigue. It can also cause agitation and restlessness as well as heart arrhythmias (11).

Incorporating the gelatinous regions of the body including the bone broth, skin, tendons, ligaments, discs and bone marrow as well as organ meats helps provide nutrient balance and synergy.
and
Health Benefits of Bone Broth:
Bone broth is the world’s best source of gelatin and collagen protein. Research has found that collagen protein found within gelatin strengthens the gut lining, reduces food sensitivities and effectively supports the integrity of the intestinal membrane (12).

Collagen is rich in the amino acids proline, glutamine and arginine which help to heal tears in the intestinal lining and support a strong gut lining. Bone broth is rich in sulfur, selenium and glycine which help with phase II liver detoxification

Bone broth is a great mineral source and contains a good amount of potassium, calcium and magnesium for healthy bones and blood pressure. Collagen protein is the same protein used to make our joints and our skin. Using gelatin and collagen is one of the best ways to keep your joints and skin young and healthy.
 
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Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
Long story short: If you eat only muscle meats you may need to supplement with Glycine.

Edit: I would suggest also Acytal-L-Carnitine, together they may lower homocysteine and prevent alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, stroke and diabetes.

I agree on the carnitine (helps me a lot too), but I recommend lab work adding using glycine. High glycine can increase the formation of endogenous oxalate (via glyoxylate), which can cause rather severe issues.

I ate carnivore-ish for a while and still have a reasonably high amount of meat in my diet (keto otherwise), mostly muscle meat (it's pricy to get organ meat in good quality). And yet my homocysteine was below the norm and my organic acid test showed a severe deficiency in methionine and other methyl group donors. A homocysteine deficiency is highly problematic because this is a strong indicator that your body has trouble manufacturing enough glutathione. So for me, supplementation with rather high amounts of methionine, SAMe and the like is necessary.

Personally I'd strongly recommendt to enough organ meat along with muscle meat. We've known for almost 100 years (google Knud Rasmussen) that people can be perfectly healthy on a carnivore diet, but only if they include enough organ meat. I consider it rather questionable that glycine is the major factor in there, as organ meat is much higher in vitamins and certain fatty acids that we need.
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
543
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I agree it's always better to get your nutrients from food than supplements because of the other beneficial nutrients that come with it.

This week, I tried lamb hearts (cooked rare) for the first time. I felt quite different afterwords and wasn't sure if I liked it or not. The next time I did a better job cooking them by first slicing in half. I now enjoy them. They come in a pack of 3 for about $5.50 ($9/kg at Coles). That's the perfect size meal for me. I've found I feel better eating OMAD than 2MAD. I could live on these for less than $40 a week - very cheap and nutritious.

Edit: Update, I've lost muscle mass, so those lamb hearts are too lean. I need more fat.
 
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GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
543
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I'm always learning new things on carnivore. I think our body knows what it needs and is always trying to improve health. It's our over thinking that gets in the way. Other animals don't have this problem because they just do what comes naturally.

Earlier this week I had a headache and wasn't hungry so I didn't eat. The next day I could only eat about 2/3 what I'd normally eat. I didn't think anything of it other than I might have caught some virus. Anyway the next time I took a shower I saw myself in the mirror and was shocked to see so much weight loss. I stepped on the scales and found I had lost 1kg in 2 days. I only eat when I hungry and I eat until I'm full. The following night I woke up in the night and was hungry; I wasn't sure if I wanted eggs or bacon. There was left over bacon grease in the frying pan so I scrambled 2 eggs with that and ate it. I then wanted bacon and ate that as well. A full meal about 8hrs after my last meal. The next morning I wanted salmon so went and bought that and ate it. That evening I ate my usual meal of lamb hearts. I rarely eat eggs, bacon or salmon. And I normally only eat once a day, so those extra meals was my body not only making up for not eating while sick, but also getting the nutrients it wanted. And I didn't consciously do it, I just ate what I wanted when I wanted.

Have you ever noticed that when an animal is sick it doesn't eat?

This is life changing.