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B2 I love you!

aquariusgirl

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A lot to digest there. I have been astonished at my own need for potassium. Lithium seems to be dramatically low in lots of hair tests I've seen ..with the caveat that...sometimes interpretation of hair tests is not as straight forward as one might think.

Curious what tests you run? thanks for responding.
 
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@aquariusgirl ,

It has been a while. "You bet your bippy" in the language of my teens, whatever a bippy is. I've gotten to bedrock. I've had intermittent hypokalemia symptoms all my life in a cycle with periodic folate deficiency.

It about blows me away that lithium reinstates homeostasis I needed to use brute force method of getting B12, in the forms of MeCbl and AdoCbl, into my CNS to keep it from falling apart. From about 2007 to some time last year, I needed 3x10mg (or 4 x 7.5 mg) of MeCbl each day and the healing and better feeling lasted about 8 hours. THe threshold for MeCbl showing up in urine at 2.4 mg sc injection with folic acid at a bit more than 1 hour, 4,2 mg SC injection at 4.2 mg between 1 and 2 hours. I have been tapering the MeCbl. Right now I 'm down to 5 mg once a week and it shows up in the urine at about 12 hours. COB[II] which is what is left after the Lithium strips off ligand is very reactive and is protected and apparently stored such that it is available to the CNS all the time from the TCR-Li. I am hypothesizing here but it's the best I can put together with all the things it does. Also it requires either COB[II] or MeCbl and AdoCbl for the CNS. In the absence of COB[II} both active forms are needed plus the l-methylfolate and the L-carnitine in a body can't make with the body's current deficiencies,.

I tried for 4 or 5 years to get my copper up to a functional level. It started to be absorbed and retained bring my level up over the past almost 2 years, the total time I've been starting and titrating the lithium orotate 5 mg (240 mcg of Li) to 20 mg of Lithium orotate. My liver healed. My hyper responses to all sorts of things have gone away. I'm below 1500 mg of potassium after years of 3-5 grams of potassium. My main deficiency has been lithium needed to make the TCR-Li so I was functionally lacking the TCR-Li and almost couldn't get B12 into my nervous system and making the cobalamin into it's catalyst form. In it's micronutrient forms and amounts it doesn't do the damage the 200-300 mg does of lithium used in the psychiatric and kidney damaging amounts. Instead the kidneys grow a lot of TCR and reclaims and retains the B12 from ending up in the urine before the absorption cycle is finished. All this fits in every bit of journal articles I've read on the subject and all my responses and others with responses. I've never known of anybody going from needing 210 mg a week to 5 mg of MeCbl (and still decreasing) a week and one sublingual dose of AdoCbl that absorbs more now than it ever did before, enough to see it excreted in urine. Also the AdoCbl still has an obvious body effect but not a noticeable CNS effect.

P:art of the problem appears to be that COB[II} isn't self booting. If there isn't any it can't make any more TCR-Li. It turns out to be part of the deadlock quintet rather than quartet. However, brute force gets enough MeCbl/AdoCbl to absorb and gradually grow the TCRE-Li convert other varieties to COB[II] that then can sustain the growth and refresh cycles for the TCR-Li.. No wonder nobody has found this. Everybody was trying to describe B12 in terms that to those of us with certaIn problems appears to be a myth.

I have blood tests each 3 months. After many months shifting all over, they are reaching a desirable balance. My minerals had never been able to all be in balance before. Right now my testosterone went higher than ever before as copper and other things increased and balanced and with my doc we determine what dose changes I need. The changing hormones with genetic problems can be a problem, male or female, and need to be watched and managed.

I still need the same amount of l-methylfolate but it seems to have stopped having to alternate to between Metafolin and Quatrefolic every few months to remain effective. The carnitines don't switch around either any more. They are all the same, no best one. I can't tell the difference between a 5 star MeCbl or a zero star MeCbl. My first shout in my face response was hypokalemia from hell at 6 months of 240 mcg of lithium, when red cell maturing started up hard when I got up to 7000 feet driving over the continental divide. It can happen in hours compared to all other cell forming causes of hypokalemia becasue the young red cells are already there and just need to mature.

Be well.
I can hardly believe all the improvements for you. I have read a ton of information around B12 deficiency (not as much as you) but I have never seen a connection to lithium so it must not be very well known. You said you have the significant event when you were traveling but did you begin to notice less need for big doses of B12 before that?
 
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@aquariusgirl ,

It has been a while. "You bet your bippy" in the language of my teens, whatever a bippy is. I've gotten to bedrock. I've had intermittent hypokalemia symptoms all my life in a cycle with periodic folate deficiency.

It about blows me away that lithium reinstates homeostasis I needed to use brute force method of getting B12, in the forms of MeCbl and AdoCbl, into my CNS to keep it from falling apart. From about 2007 to some time last year, I needed 3x10mg (or 4 x 7.5 mg) of MeCbl each day and the healing and better feeling lasted about 8 hours. THe threshold for MeCbl showing up in urine at 2.4 mg sc injection with folic acid at a bit more than 1 hour, 4,2 mg SC injection at 4.2 mg between 1 and 2 hours. I have been tapering the MeCbl. Right now I 'm down to 5 mg once a week and it shows up in the urine at about 12 hours. COB[II] which is what is left after the Lithium strips off ligand is very reactive and is protected and apparently stored such that it is available to the CNS all the time from the TCR-Li. I am hypothesizing here but it's the best I can put together with all the things it does. Also it requires either COB[II] or MeCbl and AdoCbl for the CNS. In the absence of COB[II} both active forms are needed plus the l-methylfolate and the L-carnitine in a body can't make with the body's current deficiencies,.

I tried for 4 or 5 years to get my copper up to a functional level. It started to be absorbed and retained bring my level up over the past almost 2 years, the total time I've been starting and titrating the lithium orotate 5 mg (240 mcg of Li) to 20 mg of Lithium orotate. My liver healed. My hyper responses to all sorts of things have gone away. I'm below 1500 mg of potassium after years of 3-5 grams of potassium. My main deficiency has been lithium needed to make the TCR-Li so I was functionally lacking the TCR-Li and almost couldn't get B12 into my nervous system and making the cobalamin into it's catalyst form. In it's micronutrient forms and amounts it doesn't do the damage the 200-300 mg does of lithium used in the psychiatric and kidney damaging amounts. Instead the kidneys grow a lot of TCR and reclaims and retains the B12 from ending up in the urine before the absorption cycle is finished. All this fits in every bit of journal articles I've read on the subject and all my responses and others with responses. I've never known of anybody going from needing 210 mg a week to 5 mg of MeCbl (and still decreasing) a week and one sublingual dose of AdoCbl that absorbs more now than it ever did before, enough to see it excreted in urine. Also the AdoCbl still has an obvious body effect but not a noticeable CNS effect.

P:art of the problem appears to be that COB[II} isn't self booting. If there isn't any it can't make any more TCR-Li. It turns out to be part of the deadlock quintet rather than quartet. However, brute force gets enough MeCbl/AdoCbl to absorb and gradually grow the TCRE-Li convert other varieties to COB[II] that then can sustain the growth and refresh cycles for the TCR-Li.. No wonder nobody has found this. Everybody was trying to describe B12 in terms that to those of us with certaIn problems appears to be a myth.

I have blood tests each 3 months. After many months shifting all over, they are reaching a desirable balance. My minerals had never been able to all be in balance before. Right now my testosterone went higher than ever before as copper and other things increased and balanced and with my doc we determine what dose changes I need. The changing hormones with genetic problems can be a problem, male or female, and need to be watched and managed.

I still need the same amount of l-methylfolate but it seems to have stopped having to alternate to between Metafolin and Quatrefolic every few months to remain effective. The carnitines don't switch around either any more. They are all the same, no best one. I can't tell the difference between a 5 star MeCbl or a zero star MeCbl. My first shout in my face response was hypokalemia from hell at 6 months of 240 mcg of lithium, when red cell maturing started up hard when I got up to 7000 feet driving over the continental divide. It can happen in hours compared to all other cell forming causes of hypokalemia becasue the young red cells are already there and just need to mature.

Be well.
Freddd, this is super interesting. Thank you.

I've been trying lithium orotate on then off, then on again over the past year and a half; and I haven't gotten a response quite like you've stated, but it has felt beneficial. Are you saying that in a 5mg lithium orotate capsule, there is 240mcg actual lithium that is useable? So you are taking four 5mg capsules a day? If so, that encourages me to try raising mine. So you titrated up to that level over 2 years?

Also very interesting about the carnitine, I discovered something a while ago. I had an incidence of a cold sore or two, and a planters wart on my foot that I just could not seem to get rid of. After reading about how lysine is heavily used in the creation of carnitine, I tried increasing lysine. Within two weeks, everything disappeared and I haven't had them return (I've also upped my carnitine since). So if this assumption is correct, I wasn't getting near enough carnitine and my body was trying very hard to make it's own. If increasing lithium can potentially help alleviate a need this high, it looks like wins all around.

*edit: What was also interesting, was that during that time of lower lysine, I could never seem to absorb enough calcium. Was constantly feeling deficiency symptoms. Once my lysine improved, so did my calcium.
 
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renski

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Since you found out on your own that msg is a fake folate, here are some more :
- msg = monosodium glutamate
- folic acid = pteroyl-L-glutamate
- hydrogenated anything
- yeast extracts (Marmite, Bovril etc...)

I am sure you can research a bit and find out a little bit more.


Well, unfortunately they were fake folates addicts and were not happy with the food.
Sad but true, and it was delicious. There was between us and them the invisible wall of unshared addiction. AA bit like when you don't drink and others do, you know? Unease from their part, partly physical because they did not get their dose, partly psychological because we are not one of them anymore , they could sense that.

Be well and lots of good wishes,
Asklipia
:devil:FFP :devil:
Talking about fake folates, dysbiotic bacteria produce folates too..
 

renski

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Thanks @Tunguska

Do you recall how you benefited from B2, and how long the benefits lasted? And it sounds like you stopped taking larger amounts of B2, if so, what was the reason?


Another Update: I said I would try manganese, and I have, but after two or so weeks of taking vitamin k (the MK-4 variety) at a 14mg/day dose. Now it feels good! I can take 10 mg if I spread it out through a day, and it gives me energy. More than 10 mg, or taken more closely together, and I become prone to anger--I wonder if this was what caused a lot of the "anger" that Christine/DogPerson attributed to iron.

Although the B2 could be what allows me to use manganese, judging by the majority of people on this forum who have had problems with both, I wonder if the missing piece was a large amount of MK-4.
@aaron_c / anyone
What would make Vitamin K allow you to tolerate manganese?
 

renski

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Excess B2 is quickly eliminated by urine, if you take more than that, you are just making bright yellow urine.Be sure to have enough co-factos like Mn, Mg and Fe, vit D levels are also important.
@Gondwanaland
So Vit D is a co-factor for B2? People earlier in the thread are saying Vit D depletes B2 :/ I can see B2 depletes my manganese, but how do I raise my manganese, I have gut issues, so my minerals are low.. but maybe I need to supplement Vit D/A/K first?
 

renski

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My recent NutrEval Test shows that my B2 still isn't working--extremely high Glutaric Acid-- and so I raised the amount I take daily to 200mg. I do and did pee bright yellow-green, but it seemed still not to have been enough. For me the initial increase caused watery eyes, but that seems to have resolved...

I would consider raising it again if I redo the test and find it still isn't working adequtely. I also raised my selenium to 300mcg/day, my iodine to about 400mcg/day, and held my molybdenum to about 150mcg/day--after having it be at about 300/day for some months. Functional B2 can be a problem for recycling B-12 and folate, I believe, which means that if it worked well, we wouldn't need such high doses of those.
Remember these are organic acids, any number of factors can impact them.. I remember reading somewhere glutaric acid is also a marker of toxicity, so wouldn't necessarily say it's 100% a B2 deficiency
 

Kathevans

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Interestingly, I discovered about two months ago that I was taking the wrong kind of molybdenum—chelated—which, according to Greg is not well absorbed. I had started with the BodyBio drops several years ago, and felt a real kick from them. But I didn’t take them for longer than a month or so, then, once able to tolerate a higher dose, switched to the WRONG TABLET! This has been a very depressing discovery. Yet, how amazing to go back on the drops as of two months ago, have another kick, and ride out the titration.

I’ll have another NutrEval soon, but I can feel a difference even now. At this point, if you really fish around The B-12 Oils site, there are links to what Greg calls the rnb protocol, which relates to B2 and, additionally, it has a long list of the right (most absorbable) forms of iodine, selenium and molybdenum. I wish I had discovered this long ago. Also, Greg, or fans of Greg have set up a Facebook page for B-12 deficiency, where all his advice is gathered and available. I hadn’t known this either. I really wish I had... Very useful.
 
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Interestingly, I discovered about two months ago that I was taking the wrong kind of molybdenum—chelated—which, according to Greg is not well absorbed. I had started with the BodyBio drops several years ago, and felt a real kick from them. But I didn’t take them for longer than a month or so, then, once able to tolerate a higher dose, switched to the WRONG TABLET! This has been a very depressing discovery. Yet, how amazing to go back on the drops as of two months ago, have another kick, and ride out the titration.

I’ll have another NutrEval soon, but I can feel a difference even now. At this point, if you really fish around The B-12 Oils site, there are links to what Greg calls the rnb protocol, which relates to B2 and, additionally, it has a long list of the right (most absorbable) forms of iodine, selenium and molybdenum. I wish I had discovered this long ago. Also, Greg, or fans of Greg have set up a Facebook page for B-12 deficiency, where all his advice is gathered and available. I hadn’t known this either. I really wish I had... Very useful.
This is incredible! I had really hit a wall with my protocol, and switching to these forms kicked everything back into gear. It's been a couple weeks now, and it's kicked things up so much that I've had to increase my copper and iron by a large amount for my body to keep pace.

Thank you for posting this. I still can't believe how switching has made such a massive difference.
 
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You are welcome. I just got back from the doctor. For the last 18 months I have been titrating Lithium Orotate (from 240 mcg to 960 mcg of Li). I can no longer produce the results I posted the other day. Homeostasis has been restored in my body. I have tapered the MeCbl injections from 30mg a day as 3x10mg to 5 mg A WEEK. All of the hot and cold running bottleneck deficiencies that changed every time I added or subtracted something has disappeared. My potassium daily down from 5000 mg to 1500 mg. Besides building TCR-Li and getting b12 into my nervous systems, it also strips the ligand providing COB[II] and stores B12 for me at least a week rather than 8 hours I used to get. All sorts of things have become more steady, instead of the rough and fast refeeding syndrome I and many others have been suffering from when I took vitamins. This is my first post saying this. This is not optimized. I found that all the other micronutrients also needed to be there to prevent damage to so many kinds of tissues. Several others are having similar results but iust is all in progress and nothing is complete or optimized. It seems that the failure of effective homeostasis in the body is at least in part caused by perhaps the only real deficiency I had, Lithium. And I would also like to say that in the last year my gut has healed. I also have to do without milk and white flour or other sources of folic acid but I had been doing that for a decade or more without the healing I have had. As I said before, we are all different but we do share a lot of biochemistry, any exactness quite unknown. I sharing the clues I have found the hard way. Too much B1`, B2, B3 caused me all kinds of misery and I had to order a specific relatively low dose b-complex becasue of all the problems too much B1, B2, B3 caused me. Too much B6 interacts with testosterone and pushes my hematocrit too high. I can't point to any such things any more since this homoeostasis has been established for the first time in my life at 71. I'm having to learn my biochemistry responses all over again. Good luck and be well.
Hi Freddd,
I hope that you read this as i have noticed that are not on here as much as what you were. I am wondering if the lithium could be the missing ingredient with the Glutathione issue that you have spoken about numerous times? Just a thought anyways
 

CCC

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Also, Greg, or fans of Greg have set up a Facebook page for B-12 deficiency, where all his advice is gathered and available. I hadn’t known this either. I really wish I had... Very useful.
You wouldn't be able to post a link to that page, would you? I'd be ever so grateful.
 

helen1

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@CCC
Ok I just had a look and saw that the moderators have archived the group on weekends. Starting today the group’s gone from Fridays to Monday mornings. They’ve said they need a break, it’s too much work 7 days a week.
It’s a private group by the way.
 

Kathevans

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You wouldn't be able to post a link to that page, would you?
But of course! Here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/946944078825502/

The Facebook page is entitled "Understanding B-12 Deficiency", and strangely, over the past couple of weeks, it has been archived and opened up twice, which means you can't post or interact. You can, however, access all the discussions and information that have gone on so far. Or at least I can, as I joined the group sometime in November or December. I hope you can access it all, too. What I can see is that if you can click on "Units" at the upper left side of the opening page, you will see about 18 different Units of information that have been posted. Unit#5 deals with B2.

If not, some of Greg's basic information is available at the b-12oils.com site. Strangely, there are some links here that I've found at one time that I could not locate at another. I've thought this was the difference between getting on line on my Mac or on my iPad. But today I have learned that access to some information has been limited to people who have joined the FB page and are given another link

And amazingly, as I tried to figure this out, I came across this in 'Unit #5:


GRJ continues to update his websites. Some information is only available to members of our group and we access it through manual links. To access this information, go to "https://b12oils.com/" and then type in the name plus ".htm".
The list of topic names:
*rnb
*paradoxical
*receptors

*iron
*vitamin d
*b2
*b12
He also has a new, simpler Autism-focused website:
http://understandingautism.com.au/index.htm
where the last 4 topics above are also available to the public.


If you follow these instructions, that is, link to https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm you WILL FIND THE B2 Protocol that Greg has formulated as leading to ultimate functional B2 -> Recycling of Folate and B-12.

Good luck!

What I have found is that following this protocol has led to perceptible changes for me. I am still working on very exhausted adrenals (just beginning this) and continued chelation of heavy metals (via ACC), but I am still hoping...

I hope this makes sense, I was working it out even as I was trying to give you the information!
 

CCC

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I get this message:

The link you followed may have expired, or the Page may only be visible to an audience that you aren't in.


It might be a very private group.

Thanks anyway.
 

Learner1

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Got my NutrEval and OAT back. Both show very low B2 and very high glutaric acid and metabolites. Sarcosine is sky high too.

Odd, as I take 235mg Thorne R5P, divided into 2-3 doses. I've gone to 300mg for now, but this seems ridiculous. Wondering where it's all going.

Other Bs are ok. Folate is a little low. I am not terribly toxic at this point. Energy is ok.

@renski @sb4 @ScottTriGuy Any ideas??
 
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renski

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Going through my notes, glutaric acid is a detox marker as well.. so might not mean B2 deficiency.. maybe find out what else glutaric acid indicates?

Also:
Glutaric Acid – High/Normal; Elevation indicates riboflavin/B2 deficiency, a common
factor in moderate urinary increases of glutaric acid; other possible factors include fatty
acid oxidation defects and metabolic effects of valproic acid (Depakene), or celiac
disease.
 

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