B2 I love you!

Learner1

Senior Member
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6,311
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Pacific Northwest
Well, I am celiac, but on a GF diet for 10 years. Nothing genetic has popped up and I wasn't always this short of B2. I've been detoxing pretty thoroughly for 8 years and I'm less toxic now than at any time in the past but more B2 deficient. No valproic acid, but it does bring up the question if done drug I'm taking sapping it...

I'll look into fatty acid oxidation, could be a possibility. My mitos are less than spunky.

Thanks for the guide - nice presentation! I hadn't seen that particular one before.;)
 

stridor

Senior Member
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879
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Learner1
I have always had a hard issue absorbing certain things in including B2. The immunologist said that I am likely celiac and that I have damaged my gut by not being diagnosed earlier in life. I went on injectable for a couple of years but now take around 400mg a day but could likely take less if I divided the dosing better. In 2011 and 2012, twice I developed the symptoms including swollen/spit tongue, rashes on face and privates, cracks at corners of mouth and enlarged capillaries in my eyes.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,311
Location
Pacific Northwest
@Learner1
I have always had a hard issue absorbing certain things in including B2. The immunologist said that I am likely celiac and that I have damaged my gut by not being diagnosed earlier in life. I went on injectable for a couple of years but now take around 400mg a day but could likely take less if I divided the dosing better. In 2011 and 2012, twice I developed the symptoms including swollen/spit tongue, rashes on face and privates, cracks at corners of mouth and enlarged capillaries in my eyes.
Were those symptoms deficiency or toxicity?

Are you feeling the 400mg is working well? Thanks.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
879
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Learner1
Those are the symptoms of deficiency. It was exacerbated by taking B12 which I was also short on. Things tried to fire up and it depleted limited B2 stores - which is used in energy production. Anyway, there are signs of toxicity that you can google but they are not common. The gut has limitations when it comes to absorption. I am taking enough and likely could cut back a bit. A change in urine colour signals there is more than enough.

There is a theory that a B2 deficiency underpins CFS. Not sure about that but it kind of fits with me. Another thing to watch for is that B2 is needed for iron absorption. My ferritin level was 9.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
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Location
Pacific Northwest
I have hemachromatosis, so absorbing iron is not a plus.:(

Yes, I've read the gut can only absorb so much, something small like 25mg, but I've seen numbers move with far more than that. But that's why I divided up the dose.

As for the colored urine, my urine is plenty yellow but both the OAT and NutrEval show I'm deficient, with high sarcosine and glutaric acid, so I'm skeptical that I have more than enough, and it's yellow if I get it IV or oral so it's not just my gut.

B2 is used as FAD in complex II. It's also a cofactor for methylation.

So, I guess the question is, why isn't it getting where it needs to go, and then showing deficiency in so many ways? Or, am I just frantically blowing through it? I'm averaging over 5 miles a day walking these days and do a lot of methylating to try to make glutathione.

Do you have any further explanation than malabsorption?

Thanks.
 
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12
Hi! Does one of you know how can i contact dog person? I need manganese so much but it gave me liver pain when i take it like cholestasis
 

Sophiedw

Senior Member
Messages
384
Does anyone have any distinct symptoms that show a manganese deficiency? How do people know what dosage to take?

Thanks
 
Messages
21
Does anyone have any distinct symptoms that show a manganese deficiency? How do people know what dosage to take?

Thanks

Manganese deficiencies symptoms have been harder for me to discern than other nutrients, but I think for me I found that my blood sugar would fluctuate to an uncomfortable degree, especially on the low side. This isn't something I can state with a large degree of confidence though.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I have been titrating and learning about micronutrient Lithium Orotate the last 4 years. I titrated from 5 mg to 30 mg and back to 20 mg. The lithium has allowed the TransCobalamin Receptor Li to be grown and strip B12 to cob[ii]. It is found at least in oral mucosa and can provide 5-10 minutes mouth to brain and neurological brightening in several steps with cob[ii] occupying the CSF/CNS. It stores B12 and appears to restore homeostasis and ordered repair instead merry-go-round refeeding syndrome. It changes slowly as the TCR-Li grows and reaches certain thresholds. At one point lot of test results changed and the copper I was having so much difficulty restoring copper level to normal levels for several years normalized as the TCR-Li increased. I seems to run the balance of minerals and nutrients and healing. My kidneys instead of dumping lots of B12 in the first hour or two, for thousands of injections and now I can inject 7.5 mg once in 2 weeks instead of 30 mg/day. Now the kidneys can keep 10 mg not excreted visibly for 12+ years and then spread over the next 12 hours.

Sublingual MeCbl can be absorbed in about 10-50 mcg per minute and in excess of 10 mg over 3-4 hours and 50 mg of sublingual, sub-labial. If a person is low on CNS cob[ii] one can even feel the cbl in meat being absorbed and transported to CNS/CSF in the same 5-10 minutes. So far my experiences and those told to me are only a few people. I have been told about or experienced myself is medium rare or rare steak and soft boiled eggs.

Also, when TCR-Li delivers cob[ii] it can't doesn't deliver HyCbl or CyCbl to the brain and doesn't cause methyltrap with demyelination. It is that effect that is spoken of is often credited to something the TCR-Li helping "folate" somehow. The lack of MeCbl or cob[ii] causes methyltrap which kicks out the methylfolate from the cell and the cell growth fails with methylfolate deficiencies and lots of inflammation.

Lithium has become rare in our water and food supply and fluorine has become common. Fluoride blocks TCR-Li so it doesn't work. It takes some lithium to maintain the TCR-Li and can grow more with the deadlock quartet plus Lithium orotate.

I have a whole lot more to say about Lithium but I believe it's best to know some of these pragmatic things.
It changes lots of things.
 

helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,038
Location
Canada
Hi @Freddd
Do you know of anyone else’s experience successfully using lithium orotate & b12? Just wondering if you think this is a common deficiency (Li) or not.

Also, what are some of the problems you’ve noticed when using Li orotate?
 
Messages
12
I have been titrating and learning about micronutrient Lithium Orotate the last 4 years. I titrated from 5 mg to 30 mg and back to 20 mg. The lithium has allowed the TransCobalamin Receptor Li to be grown and strip B12 to cob[ii]. It is found at least in oral mucosa and can provide 5-10 minutes mouth to brain and neurological brightening in several steps with cob[ii] occupying the CSF/CNS. It stores B12 and appears to restore homeostasis and ordered repair instead merry-go-round refeeding syndrome. It changes slowly as the TCR-Li grows and reaches certain thresholds. At one point lot of test results changed and the copper I was having so much difficulty restoring copper level to normal levels for several years normalized as the TCR-Li increased. I seems to run the balance of minerals and nutrients and healing. My kidneys instead of dumping lots of B12 in the first hour or two, for thousands of injections and now I can inject 7.5 mg once in 2 weeks instead of 30 mg/day. Now the kidneys can keep 10 mg not excreted visibly for 12+ years and then spread over the next 12 hours.

Sublingual MeCbl can be absorbed in about 10-50 mcg per minute and in excess of 10 mg over 3-4 hours and 50 mg of sublingual, sub-labial. If a person is low on CNS cob[ii] one can even feel the cbl in meat being absorbed and transported to CNS/CSF in the same 5-10 minutes. So far my experiences and those told to me are only a few people. I have been told about or experienced myself is medium rare or rare steak and soft boiled eggs.

Also, when TCR-Li delivers cob[ii] it can't doesn't deliver HyCbl or CyCbl to the brain and doesn't cause methyltrap with demyelination. It is that effect that is spoken of is often credited to something the TCR-Li helping "folate" somehow. The lack of MeCbl or cob[ii] causes methyltrap which kicks out the methylfolate from the cell and the cell growth fails with methylfolate deficiencies and lots of inflammation.

Lithium has become rare in our water and food supply and fluorine has become common. Fluoride blocks TCR-Li so it doesn't work. It takes some lithium to maintain the TCR-Li and can grow more with the deadlock quartet plus Lithium orotate.

I have a whole lot more to say about Lithium but I believe it's best to know some of these pragmatic things.
It changes lots of things.
Hi Fredd ! Love your work.

I had liver pain, very low ceruloplasmin and serum copper and very low manganese, and liver pain, and issue with very low potassium. I saw your post so i took lithium orotate 5mg and it was awesome my potassium deficiency was less high and my liver pain was much much better, but the issue is it seem like the orotate give me very high ammonia. So i want to continue taking lithium but in what form do you think i can take it instead of orotate ? It seem like ionic liquid lithium chloride is the only option for me.

And do you know if boron is too needed for potassium balance ?

Best regards,

Nicolas
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi Fredd ! Love your work.

I had liver pain, very low ceruloplasmin and serum copper and very low manganese, and liver pain, and issue with very low potassium. I saw your post so i took lithium orotate 5mg and it was awesome my potassium deficiency was less high and my liver pain was much much better, but the issue is it seem like the orotate give me very high ammonia. So i want to continue taking lithium but in what form do you think i can take it instead of orotate ? It seem like ionic liquid lithium chloride is the only option for me.

And do you know if boron is too needed for potassium balance ?

Best regards,

Nicolas

Hi Nicolas,

Things are not optimized. I have a method I have worked out how to get pretty good results for many people. The logic of this works this way. Initially One takes all the micro-nutrients. vitamins, B-complex like B-Right to get healing started With low quantities of Lithium in the form of Transcobalamin Receptor L,i the progressions with epithelial tissues is where things tend to start obvious healing. Then after all the basics are started one starts with MeCbl of the deadlock quartet. After that gets things going, keep thing going until a set of symptoms gets worse. Those will be things like methylfolate and/or potassium, often alternating This key into the Refeeding syndrome list of nutrients. It isn't complete. People differentiate into different sequences and combinations.

Boron is essential. A lack of sufficient boron and it can feel fatiguing and causes bacterial films like on teeth and uncontrollable tooth decay. At the same time one might have dark gums and deterioration of gum tissue and lose ones teeth from low copper (can be in mid range, but that is because it is not being used). My liver problems cleared up when I could get copper to above mid range with the help of TCR-Li. As far as my hypothesis is that the liver grows TCR-Li and the cells to generate copper enzymes. I had to take low amounts of iron for a while. Copper also reduced MCV from above 100 to below 93 after getting enough MeCbl and 45 mg of methylfolate. It wasn't mater of jumping from 1000 mcg of mfolate to 45,000 mcg. Instead I found that the bottlenecks had to be built. Increasing doses by 1 mg a day with seems to work in build supply lines.

All of the micronutrient minerals can cause serious problems if bottle-necked or deficient.

The order is important as the nutrient order is in order of bottlenecks in making cells. The only symptoms getting worse are the ones to increase the nutrient. Those symptoms respond in hours telling you it is the correct nutrient to add.

Different people may have different orders of deficiencies and bottlenecks. Several people had sudden bottlenecks for type of methylfolate and they had to switch to Quatrefolic from Metafolin for a few days and switching back worked. Also several of us have had to switch from L-carnitine tartrate or ALCAR or LC fumarate and so on. I had to try multiple different copper formulations until I found one that I could tolerate and work. As some things healed, some things stopped working or switched to a different pathway.

TCR-Li needs cob[ii] to make more cob[ii], the active catalyst form of B12. In the beginning nobody has much any more. It takes the deadlock quartet (MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine (fumarate or other) to grow cells with TCR-Li. First up is oral mucosa with TCR-Li. Then after those are built, the liver and kidney TCR-Li is built. I had two years of increased liver healing from 1+ to 3+ years and kidney healing with functioning TCR-Li that now retains B12 for up to 18 hours instead of excreting it in 1-2 hours in urine.

It always puzzled me that b12 being " water soluble" would pour multi mg of B12 out the kidneys while the gut had a massively complex B12 system for absorption that fought hard and expensively to preserver 2 mcg of B12 in the body. That seems to be a non functional logic. It doesn't make sense that the B12 for the CNS/CSF would be thrown out en mass whereas minute amounts are struggled to hold onto expensively for the body. and the CNS/CSF is starved of B12. Now instead the TCR-Li in mouth can absorb large amounts of B12 from meat and MeCbl and AdoCbl sublingual and retain the bulk of the B12 for much of a day as it gets distributed in the CNS/CSF instead of being exceed within 1-2 hours mostly. And along with these things it appears to take some years to grow enough TCR-Li to balance all sorts of nutrients like electrolytes and regulates healing.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi @Freddd
Do you know of anyone else’s experience successfully using lithium orotate & b12? Just wondering if you think this is a common deficiency (Li) or not.

Also, what are some of the problems you’ve noticed when using Li orotate?

Hi Helen,

Concerning Lithium Orotate or tartrate, As the TCR-Li grows (receptors for in a cell more and more things become balanced. The side effects are that it switches differently to refeeding syndrome. For instance, more ammonia may be present in urine. It can be becasue of liver problems or kidney problems, infections at times or just plain waste substances at a higher amount becasue more cells made means more wastes made, nitrogenous wastes. It can mean a person needs various nutrients, sometimes, or there is damage, maybe being healed to make it.

When I got rid of 85 pounds of edema my urine stank of all sorts of things including ammonia.

From my experiences and the N=1000 study on common language symptoms and included an hour of sublingual MeCbl 1000 mcg, if a person has a little TCR-Li in the mouth for the nervous system, half the people had the nonspecific symptoms that are cell failure symptoms who then 75% of the people with clusters of respond to MeCbl (1st of 4 deadlock quartet which builds up to about 90% with all 4 of DQ have the 5-10 minute mouth to brain cob[ii] response which in my experience is insufficient MeCbl is in the CNS/CSF in form of MeCbl or cob[ii]. It then starts up the neurology light-up with cob[ii].

https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

The symptoms of lithium deficiency (TCR-Li deficiency) are at that link and are in the refeeding syndrome portion.

Another thing that happened is when I went up to 7000 feet altitude from 4500 in a 2 hour drive about 6 months into Lithium Orotate.. I had the worst hypokalemia. And in other years, it took 3 days to start hypokalemia after arrival. In 1955 or so about 1% of CyCbl subjects had fast hypokalemia in the studies being done. Red cells are the only cause I know of that can start in hours like that.

At 3 years into lithium suddenly my kidneys kept B12 in circulation of 12+ hours before excreting most of it unlike it had always done that in 1-2 hours before lithium orotate . or tartrate.
 

Sophiedw

Senior Member
Messages
384
Hey @Freddd, this is all fascinating. I coincidentally found lithium to be my missing piece recently and my symptoms in some way mirror yours. I first contacted this forum coz I had a b12 crisis from taking NAC although I’ve never had CFS as it is described here.

I have many things id like to ask you but first is I wonder what happens if you now don’t take lithium? Has your TCR-Li grown to such a degree where it can sustain you without all the supps? Do you think the deficiency has been central to your illness?

Best wishes,

Soap
 
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