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B2 I love you!

Pearshaped

...and then things went pearshaped.
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Does someone of you have a preferred brand ? i take Natural Factors B2.id be interested to hear which brand of B2 do ppl in this thread prefer..
 
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B2 definitely makes things worse on CFS (insomnia is a big one), I'm seeing more benefits from pantethine and B1
I've too noticed worsening of insomnia when going overboard with B2, I think it's somehow related to iron or copper as other supplements like Vitamin C, DIM, Zinc, Biotin, Polyphenols(Hesperdin in particular) give me the same type of insomnia - just waking after a couple of hours and unable to fall back asleep, sometimes till morning.
I imagine that's how it feels when you're truly anemic.
 
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I've too noticed worsening of insomnia when going overboard with B2, I think it's somehow related to iron or copper as other supplements like Vitamin C, DIM, Zinc, Biotin, Polyphenols(Hesperdin in particular) give me the same type of insomnia - just waking after a couple of hours and unable to fall back asleep, sometimes till morning.
I imagine that's how it feels when you're truly anemic.
I highly suspect like @Lolinda already mentioned that oral B vitamins can fed the bacteria and thus create a feeling of dizziness and brain fog.
Transdermal is the way to go
 
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I highly suspect like @Lolinda already mentioned that oral B vitamins can fed the bacteria and thus create a feeling of dizziness and brain fog.
Transdermal is the way to go
B vitamins (Taken individually or as a complex) have done more harm to me than good. B1, B6, B9 and b12 gave me insomnia, irritability, depression and extreme anger over small things. B2 started well with energy but seemed to have no effect after a week (except for the bright yellow pee and insomnia). B3 gave me itchy scalp and skin with hair fall. So I would caution people to test any B vitamins in small and low doses to see if it really helps before considering any as a miracle worker.
 

Freddd

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B vitamins (Taken individually or as a complex) have done more harm to me than good. B1, B6, B9 and b12 gave me insomnia, irritability, depression and extreme anger over small things. B2 started well with energy but seemed to have no effect after a week (except for the bright yellow pee and insomnia). B3 gave me itchy scalp and skin with hair fall. So I would caution people to test any B vitamins in small and low doses to see if it really helps before considering any as a miracle worker.
@xploit316,

The balance or lack between the two active B12s, MeCbl and AdoCbl can cause some of those symptoms, and extreme anger or worse can be caused by several nutrient in people with certain patterns of symptoms and what looks like demyelination or other neuron damage in certain parts of the brain.

Following are the groups of induced deficiency symptoms when starting with the Deadlock Quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-carnitine fumarate).

Version 2.42 11/06/2018 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.

Copyright 2019, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, copied from original manuscript.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient with normally feeling or seeing the changes within minutes to hours. From MecBL I had over 30 symptoms respond in the first few hours with blow my socks off intensity with neurological startup and potassium deficiency on the 3rd day along with increasing folate deficiencies that took years to figure out. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return that can also indicate a developing deficiency that started hindering cell formation.​
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).​
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.​
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum​
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness​
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure, intense sudden dizzy spells correctable potentially in minutes with water with potassium gluconate for instance.​
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.​
Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency​
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation​
Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency​
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue​
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anything else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.​
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.​
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.​
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline​
Edema,​
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores​
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.​
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation​
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue​
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms​
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract​
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,​
Longer term, very serious:​
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.​
High MCV, > 93, persistent and resistant to MeCbl and B6 and/P5P. The warning about too much folate causing subacute combined degeneration which kept folic acid to a max of 800 mcg for decades becasue large folate doses can lower MCV without MeCbl. There is a long history to this.​
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.​
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.​
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests. Well after all other observable copper deficiency symptoms showed up, a lower value as copper contibued to fall, MCV suddely went over 100 after it had fallen to Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone​
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.​
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.​
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation​
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.​
Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.​
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron​
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects​
Formation of bacterial films​
Runaway tooth decay,​
vaginal bacterial films​
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth​
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.​
Group 9 - Vanadium insufficiency​
Deficiency of vanadium is poorly known or recognized. It affects tissue permeability like insulin.​
vanadium insufficiency can cause (allow?) rising AIC​
vanadium insufficiency allows the liver to make more cholesterol​
Group 10 - Lithium insufficiency Non ionizing forms, small micronutrient doses​
Lithium allows better permeability of B12 in nervous system membranes. Many people appear to have trouble affecting some B12 deficiency symptoms with B12 even poor sleep (B12 insufficiency sleep disorder it looks like), poor B12 absorption.​
Group 11 - Iodine insufficiency, especially needed for those who don't eat iodized table salt and/or seafood.​
Group 12 - L-carnitine XXXXX, That can be L-carnitine tartrate, L-C Fumarate, L-C freebase, ALCAR and others but usually works only one kind at a time.​
neuromuscular pain, feeling of growing inflammation, fatigue, mood changes, sleep problems. These are quick occuring symptoms and they can sprwead to the complete 4 way deadlock over time.​
It appears that for most people in this refeeding situation many may respond to only one form of l-carnitine, initially fumarate or ALCAR and sometimes also including a freebase form. However, as the deficienciencies change, the pathways appear to change and the carinitne that worked so well no longer does and the form is some entirely different one, like tartrate or some other variation. A person may need to trial half a dozen forms. A response is usually clear the first day or occasionally several days with micro doses and titration. And it can change based on what else is corrected.​


https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186
 
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@xploit316,

The balance or lack between the two active B12s, MeCbl and AdoCbl can cause some of those symptoms, and extreme anger or worse can be caused by several nutrient in people with certain patterns of symptoms and what looks like demyelination or other neuron damage in certain parts of the brain.

Following are the groups of induced deficiency symptoms when starting with the Deadlock Quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-carnitine fumarate).

Version 2.42 11/06/2018 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
Copyright 2019, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, copied from original manuscript.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient with normally feeling or seeing the changes within minutes to hours. From MecBL I had over 30 symptoms respond in the first few hours with blow my socks off intensity with neurological startup and potassium deficiency on the 3rd day along with increasing folate deficiencies that took years to figure out. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return that can also indicate a developing deficiency that started hindering cell formation.​
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).​
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.​
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,​
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness​
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure, intense sudden dizzy spells correctable potentially in minutes with water with potassium gluconate for instance.​
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.​
Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency​
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation​
Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency​
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue​
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anything else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.​
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.​
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.​
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline​
Edema​
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,​
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.​
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation​
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue​
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms​
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,​
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,​
Longer term, very serious:​
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.​
High MCV, > 93, persistent and resistant to MeCbl and B6 and/P5P. The warning about too much folate causing subacute combined degeneration which kept folic acid to a max of 800 mcg for decades becasue large folate doses can lower MCV without MeCbl. There is a long history to this.​
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.​
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.​
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests. Well after all other observable copper deficiency symptoms showed up, a lower value as copper contibued to fall, MCV suddely went over 100 after it had fallen to​
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone​
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.​
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.​
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation​
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.​
Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.​
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron​
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects​
Formation of bacterial films​
Runaway tooth decay,​
vaginal bacterial films​
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth​
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.​
Group 9 - Vanadium insufficiency​
Deficiency of vanadium is poorly known or recognized. It affects tissue permeability like insulin.​
vanadium insufficiency can cause (allow?) rising AIC​
vanadium insufficiency allows the liver to make more cholesterol​
Group 10 - Lithium insufficiency Non ionizing forms, small micronutrient doses​
Lithium allows better permeability of B12 in nervous system membranes. Many people appear to have trouble affecting some B12 deficiency symptoms with B12 even poor sleep (B12 insufficiency sleep disorder it looks like), poor B12 absorption.​
Group 11 - Iodine insufficiency, especially needed for those who don't eat iodized table salt and/or seafood.​
Group 12 - L-carnitine XXXXX, That can be L-carnitine tartrate, L-C Fumarate, L-C freebase, ALCAR and others but usually works only one kind at a time.​
neuromuscular pain, feeling of growing inflammation, fatigue, mood changes, sleep problems. These are quick occuring symptoms and they can sprwead to the complete 4 way deadlock over time.​
It appears that for most people in this refeeding situation many may respond to only one form of l-carnitine, initially fumarate or ALCAR and sometimes also including a freebase form. However, as the deficienciencies change, the pathways appear to change and the carinitne that worked so well no longer does and the form is some entirely different one, like tartrate or some other variation. A person may need to trial half a dozen forms. A response is usually clear the first day or occasionally several days with micro doses and titration. And it can change based on what else is corrected.​


https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186
Thanks Fredd but not going the supplementing B route again, really messed my confidence about it. I am now looking to heal my gut (through HCL/Pepsin and enzymes) and see if that helps extract B vitamins better from the foods I eat.
 
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Freddd

Senior Member
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Thanks Fredd but not going the supplementing B route again, really messed my confidence about it. I am now looking to heal my gut (through HCL/Pepsin and enzymes) and see if that helps extract B vitamins better from the foods I eat.
You are welcome. I just got back from the doctor. For the last 18 months I have been titrating Lithium Orotate (from 240 mcg to 960 mcg of Li). I can no longer produce the results I posted the other day. Homeostasis has been restored in my body. I have tapered the MeCbl injections from 30mg a day as 3x10mg to 5 mg A WEEK. All of the hot and cold running bottleneck deficiencies that changed every time I added or subtracted something has disappeared. My potassium daily down from 5000 mg to 1500 mg. Besides building TCR-Li and getting b12 into my nervous systems, it also strips the ligand providing COB[II] and stores B12 for me at least a week rather than 8 hours I used to get. All sorts of things have become more steady, instead of the rough and fast refeeding syndrome I and many others have been suffering from when I took vitamins. This is my first post saying this. This is not optimized. I found that all the other micronutrients also needed to be there to prevent damage to so many kinds of tissues. Several others are having similar results but iust is all in progress and nothing is complete or optimized. It seems that the failure of effective homeostasis in the body is at least in part caused by perhaps the only real deficiency I had, Lithium. And I would also like to say that in the last year my gut has healed. I also have to do without milk and white flour or other sources of folic acid but I had been doing that for a decade or more without the healing I have had. As I said before, we are all different but we do share a lot of biochemistry, any exactness quite unknown. I sharing the clues I have found the hard way. Too much B1`, B2, B3 caused me all kinds of misery and I had to order a specific relatively low dose b-complex becasue of all the problems too much B1, B2, B3 caused me. Too much B6 interacts with testosterone and pushes my hematocrit too high. I can't point to any such things any more since this homoeostasis has been established for the first time in my life at 71. I'm having to learn my biochemistry responses all over again. Good luck and be well.
 
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You are welcome. I just got back from the doctor. For the last 18 months I have been titrating Lithium Orotate (from 240 mcg to 960 mcg of Li). I can no longer produce the results I posted the other day. Homeostasis has been restored in my body. I have tapered the MeCbl injections from 30mg a day as 3x10mg to 5 mg A WEEK. All of the hot and cold running bottleneck deficiencies that changed every time I added or subtracted something has disappeared. My potassium daily down from 5000 mg to 1500 mg. Besides building TCR-Li and getting b12 into my nervous systems, it also strips the ligand providing COB[II] and stores B12 for me at least a week rather than 8 hours I used to get. All sorts of things have become more steady, instead of the rough and fast refeeding syndrome I and many others have been suffering from when I took vitamins. This is my first post saying this. This is not optimized. I found that all the other micronutrients also needed to be there to prevent damage to so many kinds of tissues. Several others are having similar results but iust is all in progress and nothing is complete or optimized. It seems that the failure of effective homeostasis in the body is at least in part caused by perhaps the only real deficiency I had, Lithium. And I would also like to say that in the last year my gut has healed. I also have to do without milk and white flour or other sources of folic acid but I had been doing that for a decade or more without the healing I have had. As I said before, we are all different but we do share a lot of biochemistry, any exactness quite unknown. I sharing the clues I have found the hard way. Too much B1`, B2, B3 caused me all kinds of misery and I had to order a specific relatively low dose b-complex becasue of all the problems too much B1, B2, B3 caused me. Too much B6 interacts with testosterone and pushes my hematocrit too high. I can't point to any such things any more since this homoeostasis has been established for the first time in my life at 71. I'm having to learn my biochemistry responses all over again. Good luck and be well.
This is actually quite stunning Fred. What a revelation for you and those of us who have to have B12 everyday to function. Makes me wonder about my own situation. I read about Lithium on a blog from Amy Yasko where it was explained as to he role that Lithium plays in transport of B12 into cells. I have also read that too high of dose of Lithium can be damaging to the kidneys so that is a little worrisome. How high is too high is the question since we all process things differently.
Thank you for sharing where you are in this process and I hope you expand on your experience even if it isn’t optimized. I am intrigued and need to learn a lot more. What a journey you have been on.....this is a wow moment for sure.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
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Location
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This is actually quite stunning Fred. What a revelation for you and those of us who have to have B12 everyday to function. Makes me wonder about my own situation. I read about Lithium on a blog from Amy Yasko where it was explained as to he role that Lithium plays in transport of B12 into cells. I have also read that too high of dose of Lithium can be damaging to the kidneys so that is a little worrisome. How high is too high is the question since we all process things differently.
Thank you for sharing where you are in this process and I hope you expand on your experience even if it isn’t optimized. I am intrigued and need to learn a lot more. What a journey you have been on.....this is a wow moment for sure.
Hi Idie,

The doses like several hundred mgs used psychiatrically can damage kidneys. Everything I mentioned is less than 1 mg of lithium and is micronutrient amounts.. This is totally stunning. Our bodies got along with this micronutrient for a long time. Suddenly in the 1950s, while B12 is being studied, people are all increasing their fluoride consumption, and I was a dentist's son, and my father believed in fluoride for dental prevention without realizing the delicate Lithium equilibrium with f;louride.. I had no cavities before and very few in my lifetime until copper and boron deficiencies allowed out of control tooth decay. However, fluoride latches onto Lithium and blocks the receptor. There are likely other blocks as well. My first really noticable response was 6 months in of 240 mcg. I live at 4500 ft altitude. I was driving through Wyoming and hit 7000 feet altitude. Very quickly I started developing very noticing rapidly hypokalemia, (low potassium) apparently from red cell maturation which can start very rapidly EPO generated by kidney allowing the maturation start almost immediately because the cells are already started so there is no 3 day wait.

Low iron appears to allow rapidly increasing copper (not using it right?) and elevation of TSH for some months. My copper dropped to midrange with a small amount of iron. I added 65mg 2-3 times a week. Also my A1C dropped from 5.7 to 5.2 with 3 months of increased iron. TSH also reduced to half the level, again to mid range in 3 months. I take all the micronutrients on the list of bottleneck refeeding symptoms including vanadyl sulphate which can affect insulin sensitivity.

It appears that at any given dose, ie 240 mcg, the number of receptors reaches a limit and most of the Li goes for "refreshing" the TCR-Li. The day AFTER I increased to 480 mcg I had a B12 brightening. Then moving up to 960 mcg Li made just a little increase as it reached a new equilibrium level. I have tested up to 1920 mcg and it made no noticeable difference. Some people are so hyper sensitive to a little Li that they get as supplement has a limit of about 20 mcg to prevent insomnia. The main source of lithium for many people is their water which can vary tremendously.

To grow LCR-TI in the CNS requires the deadlock quartet (MeCbl and AdoCbl as separates) at first to replace the COB[II] that is needed to grow more TCR. As TCR increases in the CNS the less difference between MeCbl 5 star and MeCbl 1 star. I seem to have a difference in the body between AdoCbl and MeCbl but not perceived in the CNS any more.

In the literature, such little there is,they mention affecting folate. I am thinking that it prevents neurological demyelination my preventing methyltrap in the CNS becasue there is no "wrong B12" to be where MeCbl is needed for methylation as TCR-Li delivers COB[II] no matter what cobalamin it takes in (1 researcher) as it is "not fussy".

The TCR that populates the kidney appears to prevent excretion for me right now, about 12 hours if I haven't had any for a week. If I take a 10mg sublingual AdoCbl, I feel it in my body half way through the week and the excretion speeds up to 6 hours from 12 hours. Be well.
 
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Hi Idie,

The doses like several hundred mgs used psychiatrically can damage kidneys. Everything I mentioned is less than 1 mg of lithium and is micronutrient amounts.. This is totally stunning. Our bodies got along with this micronutrient for a long time. Suddenly in the 1950s, while B12 is being studied, people are all increasing their fluoride consumption, and I was a dentist's son, and my father believed in fluoride for dental prevention without realizing the delicate Lithium equilibrium with f;louride.. I had no cavities before and very few in my lifetime until copper and boron deficiencies allowed out of control tooth decay. However, fluoride latches onto Lithium and blocks the receptor. There are likely other blocks as well. My first really noticable response was 6 months in of 240 mcg. I live at 4500 ft altitude. I was driving through Wyoming and hit 7000 feet altitude. Very quickly I started developing very noticing rapidly hypokalemia, (low potassium) apparently from red cell maturation which can start very rapidly EPO generated by kidney allowing the maturation start almost immediately because the cells are already started so there is no 3 day wait.

Low iron appears to allow rapidly increasing copper (not using it right?) and elevation of TSH for some months. My copper dropped to midrange with a small amount of iron. I added 65mg 2-3 times a week. Also my A1C dropped from 5.7 to 5.2 with 3 months of increased iron. TSH also reduced to half the level, again to mid range in 3 months. I take all the micronutrients on the list of bottleneck refeeding symptoms including vanadyl sulphate which can affect insulin sensitivity.

It appears that at any given dose, ie 240 mcg, the number of receptors reaches a limit and most of the Li goes for "refreshing" the TCR-Li. The day AFTER I increased to 480 mcg I had a B12 brightening. Then moving up to 960 mcg Li made just a little increase as it reached a new equilibrium level. I have tested up to 1920 mcg and it made no noticeable difference. Some people are so hyper sensitive to a little Li that they get as supplement has a limit of about 20 mcg to prevent insomnia. The main source of lithium for many people is their water which can vary tremendously.

To grow LCR-TI in the CNS requires the deadlock quartet (MeCbl and AdoCbl as separates) at first to replace the COB[II] that is needed to grow more TCR. As TCR increases in the CNS the less difference between MeCbl 5 star and MeCbl 1 star. I seem to have a difference in the body between AdoCbl and MeCbl but not perceived in the CNS any more.

In the literature, such little there is,they mention affecting folate. I am thinking that it prevents neurological demyelination my preventing methyltrap in the CNS becasue there is no "wrong B12" to be where MeCbl is needed for methylation as TCR-Li delivers COB[II] no matter what cobalamin it takes in (1 researcher) as it is "not fussy".

The TCR that populates the kidney appears to prevent excretion for me right now, about 12 hours if I haven't had any for a week. If I take a 10mg sublingual AdoCbl, I feel it in my body half way through the week and the excretion speeds up to 6 hours from 12 hours. Be well.
Hi Fred, it is amazing that you figured this out. What put you onto the Lithium connection? If I understand you, it took 6 months of Lithium supplementation before you noticed a change (the Wyoming story)? Is that correct? It sounds like you still need to take 45 mg of Folate even though your B12 need has dropped dramatically. Is that correct also? Lithium Orotate is quite reasonably priced which is nice compared to the price of B12 Methyl injections. Thanks for sharing the impact to kidneys info, that helps too. I am still quite shocked at this revelation because it could be a game changer for people like us. I have to reread your post above to let it all sink in....I’m hoping this might work for me. I still inject daily 10 mg of Methyl and folate 5 mg per day and all the others things BUT I still suffer from insomnia...if I miss B12 for more than 2 days, I will not even close my eyes at night. That part is miserable, It sounds like lithium might be implicated in insomnia.....now it makes me wonder if lithium would help my insomnia. That would be incredible. Thanks so much
 

Freddd

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Hi Fred, it is amazing that you figured this out. What put you onto the Lithium connection? If I understand you, it took 6 months of Lithium supplementation before you noticed a change (the Wyoming story)? Is that correct? It sounds like you still need to take 45 mg of Folate even though your B12 need has dropped dramatically. Is that correct also? Lithium Orotate is quite reasonably priced which is nice compared to the price of B12 Methyl injections. Thanks for sharing the impact to kidneys info, that helps too. I am still quite shocked at this revelation because it could be a game changer for people like us. I have to reread your post above to let it all sink in....I’m hoping this might work for me. I still inject daily 10 mg of Methyl and folate 5 mg per day and all the others things BUT I still suffer from insomnia...if I miss B12 for more than 2 days, I will not even close my eyes at night. That part is miserable, It sounds like lithium might be implicated in insomnia.....now it makes me wonder if lithium would help my insomnia. That would be incredible. Thanks so much
Hi Idie,

Yes, the Wyoming story.I still need the 45 mg methylfolate BUT I haven't had any periodic folate deficiency. After having to change to a different methylfolate each period, which started a few years ago and had a year between, 6 months between, 3 months between a couple of times and then not snice. Same thing with l-carnitine. I had to change every now and then and now no type makes any difference. It is amazing. Also after I had that lithium COB[II] response that response settled down an hasn't occurred again. I appear to still have an independent AdoCbl body response. It doesn't appear to use IF at all. It appears to be a separate main B12 absorption from the absorption in a specific part of the intestine. Also it appears to store the COB[II] in the TCR inside the BBB. I don't lose it all in 12 hours or whatever and only a little in a week. I always wondered why the reclaiming < 10 mcg a day via the bile loop to intestines and back and all the peculiar explanations of apparent oddities that appeared to be characteristic of a two different things happening rather than average thing that didn't make sense and bore no resemblance to whatever I used to absorb B12 straight from the mouth in 5 minutes at a rate of 1/3 mcg per minute very little was very noticeable.. I know somebody who absorbed B12 from meat in the mouth in 5 minutes,no swallowing, probably B12 wrapped for delivery in TCR in the meat would be my hypothesis. There are two different pharmacokinetic completely different models with one group getting 200 pg/ml/per B12-mcg and the other group getting 100 pg/ml/B12-mcg with the other half completely out of sight. That happened only with people with a higher lithium level.
 
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Hi Fred,
Simply fascinating. I wonder if the lithium deficiency or the tendency to have it is genetic. If I recall, your grandfather had to eat liver stew to survive. My grandfather also had B12 issues, that I’m pretty sure must have been pernicious anemia. That was in 1946. My daughter also has a low B12 level, and now I’m wondering about this from a genetic perspective. Do you know what the half life of lithium is? Also, 6 months of daily supplementation of Lithium before you noticed a difference seems like a long time to build up. When you say it isn’t optimized yet, can you expand on that? I have lots of questions...ha! Ha!
 

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Hi Idie,
That was my step grandfather. My maternal grandfather had MS and B12 deficiency. All 3 of my children had variations of B12 and folate problems. Before that 6 months, at 240 mcg, I noticed a change in the interval that I had to change methylfolates, that I wasn't feeling like before. I had stopped feeling injections. I stopped feeling the AdoCbl mostly. I stopped needing any where near as much potassium and then the sudden jump in need for potassium in going up 2500 feet to 7000 ft that lasted for 2 weeks until I returned to 4500 feet.

The way I hypothesize it when I started MeCbl I had some empty TCR-Li still existing. I was unable to maintain] e percentage of receptors and over time they faded away and so did the neurological healing. It takes COB[II} to make the TCR-Li but there isn't any COB[II} in the CNS or lithium so no more TCR-Li gets made. It takes a brute force approach to get enough MeCbl AND AdoCbl to substitute for the two uses the COB[II] takes care of. Th additional Li also cleans out existing TCR-Li and reactivates it. With brute force, I HAD TO KEEP cobalamin SERUM LEVEL ABOUT 220.000 PG/M to make it at all. As it grew some TCR-Li and it stripped the ligands and became COB[II] it cot faster at making more TCR. It reached a limit of amount of TCR-Li on each amount of Li taken and then each increment made more and maintained more until I had a functional amount. I know another person who tried it and in months she regained the functional system and her potassium dropped, TSH went up and iron needed supplementing and the copper level shot up as mine did and dropped back with iron started. I take 65 mg twice a week so as not to interfere with copper absorption and such. I had a problem with absorption of all sorts of things and metals are competitive absorption. One person reacts so strongly with 20 mcg that she can't go higher. I bet she got more in her diet or water or something and just needed them unblocked.

So instead of the deadlock quartet it is deadlock quintet to start building TCR-Li from scratch more or less and somehow corrects the faulty homeostasis mechanisms and that takes a while too. After the TCR-Li is at adequate levels not as much is built so the CNS has enough COB[II\] that brute force is no longer needed. I also have folate problems and that appears unchanged in some ways. I found the "bootstrap loader" that allows the system to make TCR-Li without the ever so essential COB[II] and two substitutes in large quantity. Also I can use any of at least several L-carnitine types instead of only one specific one at a time.

It's not optimized for tapering the MeCbl for instance, not optimized for Li titrations schedule and so many other things. I did thousands of injections in many doses and so on. It took me 4 years to titrate methylfolate for the amount my body needed for haqndling all the symptoms it affected. It took me 5 years to correct copper and learn how to absorb enough. I have been looking for the missing micronutrient since 2007, about the same time I started having copper deficiencies and problems.
 
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For clarity TCR is? And COB(II) is? You know this so well that you have developed acronyms that I forget.
Oh, thanks for explaining. I went ahead a picked up a 5 mg Lithium Orotate. I plan to start with 1/2 cap.
 

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Hi Idie,

TransCobalamin Receptor (TCR). That replaces Transcobalamin 2 (TC2) and Holotranscobalamin 2 (HTC2). TC1 and TC3 (and HTC1, HTC3) appear to be replaced the original term Haptocorrin. The TCR-Li appears to be the form in the CNS behind the BBB (blood brain barrier), and some other places. It appears to be the basis of preventing the rapid loss in urine, and other places, which strips the ligand and stores, or prevents the loss, of the stipped cobalamin ) COB[II] (the lithium does that and can be blocked by fluorine and other such things, maybe CN (cyanide), CO (carbon monoxide) from MeCbl and AdoCbl, and theoretically HyCbl and CyCbl, I have had so much damage from that in the past. None of these terms are were developed by me. They appear in newer research or older research. COB[II] is the bare active cobalamin that acts as a catalyst that gets used over and over. It is the form for which MeCbl can act as a replacement for some reactions or AdoCbl can replace it for other reactions.

It is a newer explanation that is replacing the very old description. with Hapiticorin in the saliva and IF and the intestines. Five minute absorption in the mouth is said "it is too big a molecule to go through the skin" but maybe it is a specific receptor in the epithelial tissue of the mouth.

As you will see there are multiple ways in the way things are named and the old oral with IF model NEVER worked for me and is a myth for me and people like me. I had a lithium deficiency disabling this method and causing me so much neurological damage. People without the working TCR-Li in the CNS need to use a brute force method of getting the B12 into their CNS and it doesn't last long. The TCR-li can be anywhere from almost zero to almost saturated and so people can have all sorts of reactions and loss times from the CSF (cerebral spinal fluid.

The Lithium is used two different ways by TCR-Li. It clears out things "poisoning" the catalyst like fluorine and it is needed to grow more. Somehow it is split between the two. The first time I took an extra


"In enzymology, a cob(II)alamin reductase (EC 1.16.1.4) is an enzyme that catalyzes the chemical reaction

2 cob(I)alamin + NAD+ {\displaystyle \rightleftharpoons }
2 cob(II)alamin + NADH + H+
Thus, the two substrates of this enzyme are cob(I)alamin and NAD+, whereas its 3 products are cob(II)alamin, NADH, and H+.

This enzyme belongs to the family of oxidoreductases, specifically those oxidizing metal ion with NAD+ or NADP+ as acceptor. The systematic name of this enzyme class is cob(I)alamin:NAD+ oxidoreductase. Other names in common use include vitamin B12r reductase, B12r reductase, and NADH2:cob(II)alamin oxidoreductase. This enzyme participates in porphyrin and chlorophyll metabolism. It employs one cofactor, FAD."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cob(II)alamin_reductase
 

Freddd

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@Freddd i"m trying to wrap my head around this... so you're saying that supplementing lithium and other micronutrutients corrected some of your longstanding problems?
@aquariusgirl ,

It has been a while. "You bet your bippy" in the language of my teens, whatever a bippy is. I've gotten to bedrock. I've had intermittent hypokalemia symptoms all my life in a cycle with periodic folate deficiency.

It about blows me away that lithium reinstates homeostasis I needed to use brute force method of getting B12, in the forms of MeCbl and AdoCbl, into my CNS to keep it from falling apart. From about 2007 to some time last year, I needed 3x10mg (or 4 x 7.5 mg) of MeCbl each day and the healing and better feeling lasted about 8 hours. THe threshold for MeCbl showing up in urine at 2.4 mg sc injection with folic acid at a bit more than 1 hour, 4,2 mg SC injection at 4.2 mg between 1 and 2 hours. I have been tapering the MeCbl. Right now I 'm down to 5 mg once a week and it shows up in the urine at about 12 hours. COB[II] which is what is left after the Lithium strips off ligand is very reactive and is protected and apparently stored such that it is available to the CNS all the time from the TCR-Li. I am hypothesizing here but it's the best I can put together with all the things it does. Also it requires either COB[II] or MeCbl and AdoCbl for the CNS. In the absence of COB[II} both active forms are needed plus the l-methylfolate and the L-carnitine in a body can't make with the body's current deficiencies,.

I tried for 4 or 5 years to get my copper up to a functional level. It started to be absorbed and retained bring my level up over the past almost 2 years, the total time I've been starting and titrating the lithium orotate 5 mg (240 mcg of Li) to 20 mg of Lithium orotate. My liver healed. My hyper responses to all sorts of things have gone away. I'm below 1500 mg of potassium after years of 3-5 grams of potassium. My main deficiency has been lithium needed to make the TCR-Li so I was functionally lacking the TCR-Li and almost couldn't get B12 into my nervous system and making the cobalamin into it's catalyst form. In it's micronutrient forms and amounts it doesn't do the damage the 200-300 mg does of lithium used in the psychiatric and kidney damaging amounts. Instead the kidneys grow a lot of TCR and reclaims and retains the B12 from ending up in the urine before the absorption cycle is finished. All this fits in every bit of journal articles I've read on the subject and all my responses and others with responses. I've never known of anybody going from needing 210 mg a week to 5 mg of MeCbl (and still decreasing) a week and one sublingual dose of AdoCbl that absorbs more now than it ever did before, enough to see it excreted in urine. Also the AdoCbl still has an obvious body effect but not a noticeable CNS effect.

P:art of the problem appears to be that COB[II} isn't self booting. If there isn't any it can't make any more TCR-Li. It turns out to be part of the deadlock quintet rather than quartet. However, brute force gets enough MeCbl/AdoCbl to absorb and gradually grow the TCRE-Li convert other varieties to COB[II] that then can sustain the growth and refresh cycles for the TCR-Li.. No wonder nobody has found this. Everybody was trying to describe B12 in terms that to those of us with certaIn problems appears to be a myth.

I have blood tests each 3 months. After many months shifting all over, they are reaching a desirable balance. My minerals had never been able to all be in balance before. Right now my testosterone went higher than ever before as copper and other things increased and balanced and with my doc we determine what dose changes I need. The changing hormones with genetic problems can be a problem, male or female, and need to be watched and managed.

I still need the same amount of l-methylfolate but it seems to have stopped having to alternate to between Metafolin and Quatrefolic every few months to remain effective. The carnitines don't switch around either any more. They are all the same, no best one. I can't tell the difference between a 5 star MeCbl or a zero star MeCbl. My first shout in my face response was hypokalemia from hell at 6 months of 240 mcg of lithium, when red cell maturing started up hard when I got up to 7000 feet driving over the continental divide. It can happen in hours compared to all other cell forming causes of hypokalemia becasue the young red cells are already there and just need to mature.

Be well.