B2 I love you!

[Violeta]

I didn't get to look at the study that you quote yet.I just wanted to mention that the enzymes that break down chemicals in the liver contain heme.I quote from Wikipedia''The active site of cytochrome P450 contains a heme-iron center.The iron is tethered to the protein via a cysteine thiolate ligand.''Do you think that your capacity to break down medications or hormones is affected?According to Wikipedia the same enzymes also play a role in cholesterol synthesis and vitamin D metabolism.There was talk of eggs earlier in the thread.

That's a good link. Yes, I definitely had and still do have to some extent a reduced capacity to break down medications and hormones. Cytochrome P450 is the basis for Phase I liver detox. Anything that interferes with heme synthesis will inhibit CYP 450 production and inhibit Phase I liver detoxification.

 

[Violeta]

Very interesting find @Violeta

I have been taking biotin for about 8 months, starting low at 1 mg/day and titrating to now 10 mg/day.
How do you determine that you need B5 rather than biotin in your daily routine? I take a small amount of B5 because I add to my biotin 1 pill of Japanese Alinamin Ex Plus, which contains calcium pantothenate.
But I have a few fungus like things on my skin that do not want to leave (no "candida" feelings anymore, no more fungus on the nails which went from slightly ridged to perfectly normal) and was thinking of moving up to 20 mg. I did not do so because of the B5 issue (sharing the same transporter). I was worried about not getting enough B5.
Any ideas?

I have lots of new hair.

That's a good question, but I don't know the answer. A simple answer might be that if or when biotin gives you oily skin, you need more B5 for the CoEnzyme A. But of course the real answer would run much deeper than that. I had extreme fatigue that B5 helps with, but when I was on a low carb diet stint last December and January, I became very deficient in biotin. I probably was deficient before that, but that just brought it out. What one is eating will make a difference in the amounts of each available.

I'm going to reread the Linus Pauling page on B5 and see if there are any more clues on there.

Another thing I'm thinking is, since I do have some fungus issues on my face that biotin doesn't seem to be reversing, is there something else that I need more of besides biotin for that issue? Just at the moment the only thing I can think of is lysine.

But I have to get my dog out for a walk before it gets even hotter, I'll try to think about it in a more focused way later. You will probably figure out the answer before me.

 

[Asklipia]

OK no oily skin yet, and I eat lots of liver, avocados, eggs, shellfish, fish, dairy products. Sadly, I have reduced sweet potatoes because of the oxalates. Anyway, I supposed there is enough B5 then.

 

[Violeta]

I found this in the Linus Pauling Inst. page on pantothenic acid, to which the discussion has momentarily switched. Although B2 is needed for use of B5 and B6. This is not for your question, Asklipia, but for the discussion about peripheral neuropathy. Just another nutrient to consider with peripheral neuropathy.

"Naturally occurring pantothenic acid deficiency in humans is very rare and has been observed only in cases of severe malnutrition. World War II prisoners in the Philippines, Burma, and Japan experienced numbness and painful burning and tingling in their feet; these symptoms were relieved specifically by pantothenic acid supplementation."

 

[Lolinda]

I definitely had and still do have to some extent a reduced capacity to break down medications and hormones

here is my favourite long long list of issues causing detox problems.
https://selfhacked.com/2015/05/29/why-you-may-be-reacting-to-supplements/

(My own issue from these is low oxygen / intestinal perfusion problems. the liver is in bad position for that as it gets the blood after the gut extracted already the oxygen it needs. certainly, the liver has an alternative fresh blood supply, but exactly after a meal, when it would be important to have good detox, the bloodflow to the liver is via the gut, which has exactly at this time the highest oxygen demand.... All this adds up to bad oxygenation of the liver.
- if these things sound relevynt for anyone, here I can help further)

 

[dannybex]

I did see the quinolinic acid information, and I am wondering if that were the case would people be showing high levels of B6 on tests? As if it's not being processed and used at all.

Most of the time I am still taking the bulk biotin that I bought, so I'm not positive about the amount that I'm taking. Maybe 8mg, usually once a day. I think the flaky skin and scalp that it helps isn't the skin on the extremities. I think that's because it helps with flakiness caused by a fungus.

Do you take B5? B5 and biotin share the same transporter, and I have to reread to see if it's only absorption or if that includes into the cells, too. When I started taking B5 I needed that more than biotin. Now I seem to need both, so I alternate when I take them.

I be back with something to explain why I asked that. I don't want to get the details wrong.

Not sure if B6 would be high on tests if their quinolinic was high, but I would guess that niacin is probably low, as quinolinate isn't produced unless tryptophan needs to be broken down to make niacin.

I was trying some B5, but it dried my skin out like crazy, so I stopped (it's beyond dry as it is). Note that many use it in "high" doses for acne/oily skin, so again, I'm guessing I need to increase my fats for months before I could probably tolerate it (unless of course I took just the absolute minimum RDA)...

 

[dannybex]

Yes, the deficiency causes a decreased amount of iron utilization to produce heme, but the iron is still there in the free form, available for pathogens and causing oxidative stress. I'll look for another study to explain it today.

Yes, that's true that iron can be used by pathogens, cause oxidative stress, etc., but it's also necessary for the Krebs cycle...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10556622

"Consequently, iron supplementation results in increased formation of reducing equivalents (NADH) by the citric acid cycle, and thus in increased mitochondrial oxygen consumption and ATP formation via oxidative phosphorylation as shown herein. This in turn leads to downregulation of glucose utilization. In contrast, all these metabolic pathways are reduced upon iron depletion, and thus glycolysis and lactate formation are significantly increased in order to compensate for the decrease in ATP production..."

I've been trying it in small doses, but usually try to take lactoferrin with it whenever possible. It does seem to help reduce that lactic acid burning feeling...

 

[Violeta]

Yes, that's true that iron can be used by pathogens, cause oxidative stress, etc., but it's also necessary for the Krebs cycle...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10556622

"Consequently, iron supplementation results in increased formation of reducing equivalents (NADH) by the citric acid cycle, and thus in increased mitochondrial oxygen consumption and ATP formation via oxidative phosphorylation as shown herein. This in turn leads to downregulation of glucose utilization. In contrast, all these metabolic pathways are reduced upon iron depletion, and thus glycolysis and lactate formation are significantly increased in order to compensate for the decrease in ATP production..."

I've been trying it in small doses, but usually try to take lactoferrin with it whenever possible. It does seem to help reduce that lactic acid burning feeling...

I actually don't mean that we don't need iron, just that we have to make sure that we are using it correctly. This site that I'm linking may be an extreme, but sometimes that's the only way to find details.
This site seems to be saying that the chlamydia pneumonia came first and the porphyria followed as a result, I don't know if that is so.
http://cpnhelp.org/secondary_porphyria_what_

 

[nilsoskaraxel]

Just a personal note on B2 and methylation:

Methylfolate had mysteriously stopped working for me until a while ago, when I by accident discovered that a little extra B2 brought it back to life. BOOM! As little as 4x25 mg riboflavin over a day, on top of a B complex BID, kind of re-activated the methylfolate. It feels just like it did when I first started taking MF, euphoria, energy, neurological brightening, bordering on overstimulation. I had steered away from B2 as Freddd claimed it could quench methylation. In my case it worked just the other way around.

Just my 2 (no pun intended) cents.

 

[PeterPositive]

Just a personal note on B2 and methylation:

Methylfolate had mysteriously stopped working for me until a while ago, when I by accident discovered that a little extra B2 brought it back to life. BOOM! As little as 4x25 mg riboflavin over a day, on top of a B complex BID, kind of re-activated the methylfolate.

Well, 4x25mg a day is not "as little" ... it's a truckload! (like 100x the rda)
Other than that, great to hear that it worked for you It makes sense, since pushing a lot of a specific B vitamin will put quite a bit of "pressure" on the others and after some time you may get a dampening of the effect because you've run out of co-factors.

good luck

 

[sflorence]

Just a personal note on B2 and methylation:

Methylfolate had mysteriously stopped working for me until a while ago, when I by accident discovered that a little extra B2 brought it back to life. BOOM! As little as 4x25 mg riboflavin over a day, on top of a B complex BID, kind of re-activated the methylfolate. It feels just like it did when I first started taking MF, euphoria, energy, neurological brightening, bordering on overstimulation. I had steered away from B2 as Freddd claimed it could quench methylation. In my case it worked just the other way around.

Just my 2 (no pun intended) cents.

That's awesome, good for you!

Have you tried b2 in the past? Or was this the first time trying b2. I might have to re-viist b2. I know I took quite a bit, but not 100mg/day.

 

[nilsoskaraxel]

That's awesome, good for you!

Have you tried b2 in the past? Or was this the first time trying b2. I might have to re-viist b2. I know I took quite a bit, but not 100mg/day.

Hadn’t tried B2 as a separate vitamin before this experiment, but it was present in a fairly high dosage in a B complex I had used intermittently (Doctor’s Best) and which seemed to potentiate my methylfolate more than other brands. I noticed that the only difference between this B complex and another one I had tried without the same results was its B2 content and so I concluded I could use some extra riboflavin. Bingo!

 

[Johnmac]

Just a personal note on B2 and methylation:

Methylfolate had mysteriously stopped working for me until a while ago, when I by accident discovered that a little extra B2 brought it back to life. BOOM! As little as 4x25 mg riboflavin over a day, on top of a B complex BID, kind of re-activated the methylfolate. It feels just like it did when I first started taking MF, euphoria, energy, neurological brightening, bordering on overstimulation. I had steered away from B2 as Freddd claimed it could quench methylation. In my case it worked just the other way around.

Just my 2 (no pun intended) cents.

I had good results from upping the B2 as well. In my case the B12 worked a lot better.

 

[nilsoskaraxel]

Addendum: Even though B2 has very beneficial effects for me, it wasn’t the primary cause of the methylation burst I related to above. Turned out I had eaten some lecithin powder, and BOOOM. Unfortunately, the lecithin caused B12 and folate deficiencies to surface so I had to leave it out.

 

[keenly]

B2 makes me bloated, I need a form that bypasses the gut. Greg should make a B2 oil. Once I raise my levels, I may be able to tolerate B12, folate much better.

 

[stridor]

@keenly Someone around here was making their own oil. Messy project I would think. There have been others that have opened capsules and poured it under the tongue. Doesn't taste so hot but you could leave it for a few minutes and then spit if your gut is sensitive???

 

[keenly]

I have not yet started the B2, but Christine told me that if I felt worse one day to cut back on the B2 the next day. She said that feeling bad was not a good thing. Something about too much iron in the bile recirculating in the blood, and oxidative stress and free radical damage (are those last two more or less the same?) and I sure wish Christine was here to explain this.

I think, but do not know, that the reason she has people cut out the B-complex, vitamin C & D, fortified foods and whatever else is to keep the metabolism from going too haywire when it first gets the B2. She seem to favor the start low, go slow approach. I am a poor source of information, at best. Any of you who have a way to communicate directly with Christine would probably do well to do so.

Lactoferrin helps transport Iron to where it needs to be, and stops bacteria from scavenging it.

 

[Lolinda]

B2 makes me bloated, I need a form that bypasses the gut.

I tried B2 transdermally and it resorbs well. (I did not profit from it but thats another question). It is as simple as this:
- smear the B2 powder on your skin with a tiny amount water, say a tablespoon
- a naked leg is handy for the smearing
- dissolving magnesium chloride bath crystals in the water aids resorption. Mg dilates blood vessels (you may feel this as a small pain in the skin). But with B2, it works also without any resorption enhancement.
- pay attention to the cloth: B2 stains everything orange.

My detailed experiences you find here. Good luck!

 

[aaron_c]

I know this info will be buried here on page 55, but I finally found a good quote explaining how riboflavin assists with iron transport from liver ferritin:

Later stages of riboflavin deficiency are associated with anemias (Goeble and Goeble 1972). Riboflavin plays a significant role in erythropoiesis, at least in part by impairing iron metabolism. Flavohemoproteins, such as NAD(P)H oxidoreductase, reduce ferric iron to facilitate transport across the cell membrane and to assist mobilization of Fe3+ from liver ferritin (Zhu et al. 1999). Riboflavin supplementation of human adult and pediatric populations with anemia has confirmed this role (Buzina et al. 1979). Riboflavin-deficient children administered riboflavin demonstrate a decrease in serum iron and an increase in hemoglobin, supporting the relationship between riboflavin and iron utilization.

...

Additionally, riboflavin deficiency decreases activity of erythrocyte glutathione reductase critical for supplying GSH necessary for glutathione peroxidase that effectively regulates cellular redox potential (Beutler 1969 a,b). Under conditions of normal metabolic stress decreased activity of glutathione reductase alone is not generally associated with increased sensitivity of erythrocyte membranes to oxidant-induced injury (Beutler and Srivastava1970). By contrast, riboflavin deficiency accompanied by increased oxidative stress renders red cell membranes vulnerable to oxidative injury, resulting in hemolytic anemia.​

Handbook of Vitamins, Fifth Edition J Zempleni et al. p 219

I don't understand the bit about riboflavin "impairing iron metabolism." Wouldn't assisting with iron metabolism be a better description of what it does?

 

[Little Bluestem]

I don't understand the bit about riboflavin "impairing iron metabolism." Wouldn't assisting with iron metabolism be a better description of what it does?

I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if it is a typo?