B2 I love you!

[Lolinda]

Is there any way to accurately test for B2 defciency?

I am curious what @brenda will answer, but here my 5 cents. I just saw your post and thought: this one I have to answer as I spent so so much time into finding out about vitamin testing! (I think of opening a separate thread on this, if there isnt one yet...).

vitamin testing is a hugely difficult endeavour. for example, I had the GPL OAT done, it featured urinary B5. (I know you asked B2, so this is only an example.) Mine was normal. Also my B5 intake was around 100% RDV. But nevertheless I tried B5 alone and it had a huge good effect in me in spite of taking as little as 6.5 mg per day!!
For this and several other experiences in the same vein, I take it like this: if blood or urinary tests show a deficiency, then you likely have one. If not, conclude "don't know". Head to functional tests, whatever difficult they are to get (If you are in Europe, I can point you to some). Or try nutrients individually in an on-off-on-off fashion. (some more slowly acting nutrients, let that be vitamins, minerals or other, will need an on-on-on...-on-off-off-off...-off scheme...)

Attached you find a table of functional tests for vitamin deficiencies, B2 included.

And some further utilities you find here. on the first glance, this post seems to be on polyneuropathy, but it has several things that answer your question
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ling-in-feet-pain-tingling.45736/#post-745258
including:
- spectracell: though their test is not scientifically validated, it is really smart. they look for vitamins and some minerals in wbc!
- you can read the post as an example to how complex vitamin testing really is: in the attached table, you see "quinolinic acid" as a marker for B6. so in this post you see how much you pay to get it (from GPL in USA or from ganzimmun in Germany). And you see how complex it gets when one wants to find out reasons such as inborn errors of B6 metabolism... ......... and your GP sits in his office and seriously believes that a blood test of a vitamin has anything to do with how much you have .....

 

[Violeta]

My and others gripe with Christine was her often patronizing and almost nasty demeanor when dealing with patients offline, via email. Very often she'd blame US if something went wrong, if we didn't follow her instructions to the 'T', only to find her changing her suggestions a week later to precisely what we were going for in the first place. A one-size fits all approach almost never works, yet she would often give others with different hair test results identical recommendations.

Anyway, I'm glad that some have found benefit from her bringing up the importance of B2 to the krebs cycle and methylation. For that, we should be grateful.

I see what you mean, Danny. Since I wasn't a patient of hers I didn't know what it was like to deal directly with her.

I came here to PR because of looking for methylation information. Before reading here about methylation I had read about methylation blocks. I wasn't finding the methods most focused on here helping me, and I noticed some other people coming up with problems, too. That's when I happened upon the B2 thread. It just all made so much sense, and was definitely what I needed. I don't think there was anyone else exposing this type of information anywhere else. Especially interesting now in hind sight is that someone mentioned having Parkinsonian symptoms from methylfolate. I think it was just last year that I looked up B2 for Parkinson's, and found many sources saying it has been shown to reverse Parkinson's.

A tangent for anyone else who might have found B2 to be such an important adjunct for correcting methylation, biotin may help you, too, as it is needed for correct iron metabolism. When I started taking biotin this past spring for "candida", I had another huge improvement. Biotin deficiency can cause intracellular build up of iron, a corresponding deficiency in heme, and glitch in Complex IV causing great energy deficiency.

I am just starting the CoQ10 that you said she mentioned, Danny, and although I had been reading about it for years, I didn't buy any until recently when I found out my dog had an enlarged right atrium.
What we won't do for our pets.

 

[Lolinda]

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional, and what I say reflects my confusions from self experimentation.

Violeta ! ! You copied my old signature - I am happy to see it cause it means there are people on this forum who understand humor

 

[Lolinda]

Biotin deficiency can cause intracellular build up of iron, a corresponding deficiency in heme, and glitch in Complex IV

Sounds like me... Do you still have your sources where you took this info from? I equally have "candida" (I apreciate your "". I would love to know what that thing really is. I may know in a 2 weeks , I ordered a fancy genetics based gut microbes test... So far, all I know from a fungal culture from stomach and duodenal biopsies that it is not candida, it is almost impossible to attack, it lives in biofilms, and if I succeed to attack it, I get a die-off that is beyond imagination... , and some of it is in the stomach because biofilm-decomposing things such as nattokinase give me thos horrible reactions already starting in 15 minutes after intake.)

 

[Violeta]

Violeta ! ! You copied my old signature - I am happy to see it cause it means there are people on this forum who understand humor

Ha, did you have that as your signature? I actually got it from misreading someone's signature first time I read it, and thought, yes, that is me! I am so glad to see you have a sense of humor, too!

I started taking biotin when someone told me it was good for white flaky skin, which I was having a serious problem with after a(nother) short stint of low carb. He said it was good for fungus. Then I found a site about that that gave an expansion on that.

http://www.mold-help.org/content/view/411/

I also read that candida turns into the fungal form due to oxidative stress. I don't know if that's why biotin can reverse it or not. But if biotin corrects iron usage, it might be correcting oxidative stress, and that might stop candida from morphing into the fungal form.

There are certainly other fungi that can cause the same thing. Shame on medical establishment for not taking that into consideration and testing for other common pathogens. Klebsiella is common, also some of the pneumoniae. There are studies out there that say which ones replicate on iron, it's very common.

I forget why I started looking at biotin with respect to heme production, but I will get the link to the study that shows that a deficiency can cause toxic intracellular iron buildup in detail.

Here is one study about biotin and iron build up in the lungs. There are others, but I have to run some errands. I had recurring very serious lung infections before supplementing with B2.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/1/25.full

 

[Lolinda]

I actually got it from misreading someone's signature first time I read it, and thought, yes, that is me!

Same here: I read @Gondwanaland 's signature, that is, misread it, and put then the misreading as mine. I learnt from a US native a saying for such cases "great minds think alike" (well, I dont like calling myself a great mind, but I would like to be great enough to resolve my damn health probs.. )

in any case, seeing your signature amused me a lot

 

[Lolinda]

white flaky skin, which I was having a serious problem with after a(nother) short stint of low carb.

hm... what do I have? white flaky skin. and what do I eat? you guessed it: low carb. really low carb paleo. you must be in abetter situarion as you can have stints. I do not have that luxury.... no way to go higher in carbs, there is too harsh punishment... but in me the flaky skin is fortunately only on feet and on back. should I call myself lucky?

Here is one study about biotin and iron build up i

great study.
my hemoglobin is low. it impressively improves on b6, but i am very much on the lookout for further things to do good because I had to drop the b6 finally due to polyneuropathy side effects (inspite of taking really low doses):
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-loss-of-feeling-in-feet-pain-tingling.45736/

how did you have candida diagnosed? (arabinose, arabinitol, culture from gut biopsy, stool test, ...?)

 

[Violeta]

hm... what do I have? white flaky skin. and what do I eat? you guessed it: low carb. really low carb paleo. you must be in abetter situarion as you can have stints. I do not have that luxury.... no way to go higher in carbs, there is too harsh punishment... but in me the flaky skin is fortunately only on feet and on back. should I call myself lucky?


great study.
my hemoglobin is low. it impressively improves on b6, but i am very much on the lookout for further things to do good because I had to drop the b6 finally due to polyneuropathy side effects (inspite of taking really low doses):
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-loss-of-feeling-in-feet-pain-tingling.45736/

how did you have candida diagnosed? (arabinose, arabinitol, culture from gut biopsy, stool test, ...?)

Wish someone could find out the reason for some people getting polyneuropathy from the B6!

I just have so many symptoms of candida and taking things to help deal with it seem to make a big difference, so I have not bothered to get testing done.

And yes, you are lucky your flaky skin is not on your face! Face is the worst place for symptoms.

 

[Little Bluestem]

My and others gripe with Christine was her often patronizing and almost nasty demeanor when dealing with patients offline, via email.

Just to provide a balanced perspective, Christine and I got along fine offline.

 

[Lolinda]

I just have so many symptoms of candida and taking things to help deal with it seem to make a big difference, so I have not bothered to get testing done

is a comment welcome? if it was candida you could eradicate it with nystatin completely and have no more symptoms. now, surely, you know about nystatin and I really do not need to tell you anything on that, and possibly you already have tried it. just from my own story of years of uncertainty and partial but no complete improvements: the same symptoms can be caused by a variety of other things, notably sulfur reducing bacteria or other bacteria in the upper gut. they feed, just as candida, on carbs you ingest, and they produce, just as candida, a variety of toxins causing illness. the problem with the candida discussions and candida forjms is that they dont make a good ddx and focus only on one cause: candida. but the point I want to make is that nystain and o ther anti-candida treatments wont work against them or work only partially, so you stay partially sick.

- Its just my own story, it may or may not apply to you. testing is complicated and not as simple as some OAT vendors want to make you believe it (i.e. arabinitol). I can tell more but dont want to lecture either.

 

[dannybex]

I forget why I started looking at biotin with respect to heme production, but I will get the link to the study that shows that a deficiency can cause toxic intracellular iron buildup in detail.

Here is one study about biotin and iron build up in the lungs. There are others, but I have to run some errands. I had recurring very serious lung infections before supplementing with B2.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/1/25.full

I'd be curious if you find other studies that link biotin deficiency with iron buildup. The study you posted was an in vitro study that suggested the opposite -- that a deficiency of biotin causes a decreased amount of iron utilization.
I thnk.

 

[dannybex]

Wish someone could find out the reason for some people getting polyneuropathy from the B6!

I believe it's due to B6 causing the body to retain quinolinic acid. And also possibly from insufficient niacin (B3). If one doesn't get enough B3, then tryptophan is broken down to make it, and in the process quinolinic acid is formed.

I've posted about it elsewhere on PR, a search should turn it up.

p.s. I have really dry, flakey skin as well, especially on my arms, but legs too, and I've been trying high-dose biotin, and think it's actually making it worse, perhaps because I'm still not getting enough fats in the diet.

How much are you taking?

 

[Violeta]

I'd be curious if you find other studies that link biotin deficiency with iron buildup. The study you posted was an in vitro study that suggested the opposite -- that a deficiency of biotin causes a decreased amount of iron utilization.
I thnk.

Yes, the deficiency causes a decreased amount of iron utilization to produce heme, but the iron is still there in the free form, available for pathogens and causing oxidative stress. I'll look for another study to explain it today.

Biotin Deficiency Inhibits Heme Synthesis

 

[Violeta]

I believe it's due to B6 causing the body to retain quinolinic acid. And also possibly from insufficient niacin (B3). If one doesn't get enough B3, then tryptophan is broken down to make it, and in the process quinolinic acid is formed.

I've posted about it elsewhere on PR, a search should turn it up.

p.s. I have really dry, flakey skin as well, especially on my arms, but legs too, and I've been trying high-dose biotin, and think it's actually making it worse, perhaps because I'm still not getting enough fats in the diet.

How much are you taking?

I did see the quinolinic acid information, and I am wondering if that were the case would people be showing high levels of B6 on tests? As if it's not being processed and used at all.

Most of the time I am still taking the bulk biotin that I bought, so I'm not positive about the amount that I'm taking. Maybe 8mg, usually once a day. I think the flaky skin and scalp that it helps isn't the skin on the extremities. I think that's because it helps with flakiness caused by a fungus.

Do you take B5? B5 and biotin share the same transporter, and I have to reread to see if it's only absorption or if that includes into the cells, too. When I started taking B5 I needed that more than biotin. Now I seem to need both, so I alternate when I take them.

I be back with something to explain why I asked that. I don't want to get the details wrong.

 

[Violeta]

I did see the quinolinic acid information, and I am wondering if that were the case would people be showing high levels of B6 on tests? As if it's not being processed and used at all.

Most of the time I am still taking the bulk biotin that I bought, so I'm not positive about the amount that I'm taking. Maybe 8mg, usually once a day. I think the flaky skin and scalp that it helps isn't the skin on the extremities. I think that's because it helps with flakiness caused by a fungus.

Do you take B5? B5 and biotin share the same transporter, and I have to reread to see if it's only absorption or if that includes into the cells, too. When I started taking B5 I needed that more than biotin. Now I seem to need both, so I alternate when I take them.

I be back with something to explain why I asked that. I don't want to get the details wrong.

Danny, see if you can find anything in here.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/pantothenic-acid#phosphopantetheinylation

 

[Violeta]

I'd be curious if you find other studies that link biotin deficiency with iron buildup. The study you posted was an in vitro study that suggested the opposite -- that a deficiency of biotin causes a decreased amount of iron utilization.
I thnk.

The best study that I found to explain this isn't coming up in google, I'll have to look in Susan's group, where I posted it a couple of months ago. When Susan saw it, she said, "Oh, I hadn't seen that." Meaning, yes, I now see what you mean. Later.

 

[cfs6691]

Yes, the deficiency causes a decreased amount of iron utilization to produce heme, but the iron is still there in the free form, available for pathogens and causing oxidative stress. I'll look for another study to explain it today.

Biotin Deficiency Inhibits Heme Synthesis

I didn't get to look at the study that you quote yet.I just wanted to mention that the enzymes that break down chemicals in the liver contain heme.I quote from Wikipedia''The active site of cytochrome P450 contains a heme-iron center.The iron is tethered to the protein via a cysteine thiolate ligand.''Do you think that your capacity to break down medications or hormones is affected?According to Wikipedia the same enzymes also play a role in cholesterol synthesis and vitamin D metabolism.There was talk of eggs earlier in the thread.

 

[Asklipia]

Very interesting find @Violeta

B5 and biotin share the same transporter, and I have to reread to see if it's only absorption or if that includes into the cells, too. When I started taking B5 I needed that more than biotin. Now I seem to need both, so I alternate when I take them.

I have been taking biotin for about 8 months, starting low at 1 mg/day and titrating to now 10 mg/day.
How do you determine that you need B5 rather than biotin in your daily routine? I take a small amount of B5 because I add to my biotin 1 pill of Japanese Alinamin Ex Plus, which contains calcium pantothenate.
But I have a few fungus like things on my skin that do not want to leave (no "candida" feelings anymore, no more fungus on the nails which went from slightly ridged to perfectly normal) and was thinking of moving up to 20 mg. I did not do so because of the B5 issue (sharing the same transporter). I was worried about not getting enough B5.
Any ideas?

I have lots of new hair.

 

[Sidereal]

Do you still take the Japanese K2, @Asklipia?

 

[Asklipia]

Do you still take the Japanese K2, @Asklipia?

No. I find that I get ample K2 effect from probiotics (at the moment per day 6 Miyarisan (Clostridium butyricum), 2 or 5 billion CFU Bifidobacterium longum BB536, 2 OXALOBACT, plus a handful of others mixed (remnants of previous probiotic adventures).
From time to time I get a flare of oxalate dumping, slowly getter shorter and less intense. I am sure this is the result of the bacteria and their butyrate production.