B2 I love you!

[dannybex]

Does the same thing happen dannybex if you take P5P (the active form of b6)?

I haven't tried p5p in at least 8 months or so, but I seemed to get that 'stocking glove' neuropathy when I tried it a few times last May-June. I'll be consulting with an RN who specializes in methylation issues in the next week or so, so will ask her about this.

 

[dannybex]

Had several clients that tried supplementing their liver failure dogs with SAM-e. It worked for a short time, then the liver enzymes went up again after going down. Took the dogs off of SAM-e, put them on riboflavin and the enzymes have stayed normal for over a year.

Hi Dog Person,

You've probably been asked this already on other threads, but if not, I've got a question re: dogs and humans. Is it safe to assume that dogs and humans will have similar reactions to various nutrients? Is the overall physiology the same? Is methylation, liver function, etc., basically the same? I'm assuming so, as you've mentioned several canine case histories...but have also read that dogs can't tolerate chocolate, for example, or xylitol...so just wondering.

Also wondering if you've heard about anything about riboflavin causing worsening eye problems (sensitivity to light, night blindness, etc.)?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

p.s. Also, what is considered a safe upper limit for B2?

 

[Adster]

It would be great to keep all these new B2 threads in one place. The hair mineral testing one probably shouldn't be in the XMRV section, for example.

 

[SJB944]

Thanks Rich,

I guess the key difference so far with what Dog Person is suggesting and the SMP/Fred's Protocol is how to take Riboflavin -- she suggest a b-complex only further depletes Riboflavin, whereas this is how Fred takes it, and I think the SMP also.

Without taking away from what Dog Person is doing, and the fact that she hasn't yet had opportunity to provide the full story, arguably you could also say that any co-factor/mineral/vitamin that is involved in ATP can also be traced back to just about any process in the body, thus pointing to its great significance. Take for instance, Magnesium -- which is why it has a role also in both protocols. That is not to be cynical, if you are Riboflavin deficient, then I have no doubt in the benefits of supplementing, the question is just how does it fit into the big scheme of things.

As with all theories the only way to test them is to try them. The difficulty arises, when they conflict with existing protocols.

Rich you have pointed out previously the flaws in blood levels of B12 possibly hiding a functional b12 deficiency, can the same be said for Riboflavin?

Cheers
SJB

 

[adreno]

Right, the key issue here seems to be ratio. How much riboflavin is needed to support the metabolism of the other B vitamins?

Can taking the relatively small doses in a B complex really deplete riboflavin? Or is this only the case for people who are already severely deficient?

Can the B complex be added back later, if enough riboflavin is taken?

What is the maximum dose of B vitamins that riboflavin can support?

Some are us are interested in taking high doses of folate and B12 for its nerve healing properties. Is this not possible? Metanx, which is methylfolate, methylcobalamin and P5P, seems to work well in trials, without any riboflavin.

 

[Rand56]

Right, the key issue here seems to be ratio. How much riboflavin is needed to support the metabolism of the other B vitamins?

Can taking the relatively small doses in a B complex really deplete riboflavin? Or is this only the case for people who are already severely deficient?

Can the B complex be added back later, if enough riboflavin is taken?

What is the maximum dose of B vitamins that riboflavin can support?

Some are us are interested in taking high doses of folate and B12 for its nerve healing properties. Is this not possible? Metanx, which is methylfolate, methylcobalamin and P5P, seems to work well in trials, without any riboflavin.

Excellent questions Adreno. I may be one of the few here that are taking high doses of methylfolate..15mg per day for depression...and I'd like to know if I am tanking my B-2 stores further from such a high dose. Also taking higher doses of B-12 like many are on here.

 

[adreno]

Excellent questions Adreno. I may be one of the few here that are taking high doses of methylfolate..15mg per day for depression...and I'd like to know if I am tanking my B-2 stores further from such a high dose. Also taking higher doses of B-12 like many are on here.

Yes, this is important. The way I see it, if Dog Person's theory is right, it renders both the SMP and ABP invalid.

 

[Rand56]

Hi Rich,

I like your smile moment! It's really quite amazing how most everything tracks back to riboflavin. I'm always happy when others "get it" too.

Had several clients that tried supplementing their liver failure dogs with SAM-e. It worked for a short time, then the liver enzymes went up again after going down. Took the dogs off of SAM-e, put them on riboflavin and the enzymes have stayed normal for over a year.

hi Dog Person

So can one make the assumption from what you are saying that if someone is taking SAM-e, like myself, it can eventually deplete B-2 stores?

 

[justy]

I think it would be good to have some clarity on this issue of B2 being depleted by taking other vitamins. It has been suggested on this thread that this is true, but i cant find any evidence to back this up and im concerned that people seem to be getting confused re the Methylation protocols. The SMP comes from Amy Yaskos work with autism and im sure she would have picked this up if it was a problem.
Can we have some references for this particular aspect of the theory?
All the best, Justy.

 

[adreno]

From what I read in the hair mineral analysis thread, Dog Person will only be posting her theory in there, to keep it consistent.

 

[justy]

The problem though is that i am not interested in hair mineral analysis and so am not reading that thread - also because i asked questions on that thread i got shouted down and choose not to go there. Consequently people are bandying information around without it being backed up by references. I simply want to know the answer without having to trawl through other unrelated threads (there is anpother thread on B2 as well to discuss its implications for energy metabolism etc in M.E and the same issue of depletion has been raised on there and is being discussed in general as if it were gospel.
Just trying to dig out the facts, thats all.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I posted this on the Hair Mineral Analysis thread, but wanted to post it here as well, to share my experience with the B2

I took 3 doses (12.5 mg) of B2 yesterday, and had a very unexpected strong effect from them. (I also took a smidge of B1 and my usual 250 mcg of B12.)

Initially I felt spacey and pleasantly sedated with every dose, then later on during the night I developed a headache and woke up coughing bright yellow mucous. I have never seen this color of mucous before. Is this to be expected? I am guessing that the B2 it is causing some detoxification already.

I still feel a bit headachey this morning, somewhat nauseas and more tired, so I am going to back off and take less of the B2 today.

 

[Lou]

This is to address your questions regarding folic acid, whatever the form.

You may have read that taking the active form of folic acid is absorbed (which is the same form as in foods) but:

The active form (polyglutamated form) cannot be absorbed in the intestine. To be absorbed, it must have the glutamates removed (except the one that is an integral part of folate) by the enzyme gamma-glutamyl hydrolase (also called conjugase), so it would not be useful to take this form.

Once absorbed and taken through the intestines into the body, the glutamates are added on. It is also reduced to the tetrahydrofolate form . (Here is where it uses a riboflavin enzymes to reduce it.)

Hence, any form of folic acid will require riboflavin to reduce it.

Hi Dog Person,

If methyl b12 is absorbed by holding under upper lip as in Fredd's active protocol does this eliminate the riboflavin depletion issue?

I also wonder if those of us on the active protocol would benefit by stopping the b-complex and simply adding large doses of b2 before meals for at least long enough to restore good levels.

Best,

Lou

 

[aquariusgirl]

db: i posted about this been there ..done that ....check out my post.. i dropped my dosage.. symptoms resolved.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Hey ag: Tell me what post # please... And what dose are you on now?

 

[aquariusgirl]

dunno what post.. in the last 3 or 4 posts. i took 45 mg over 3 hrs ..went to bed. got up took another 20mg.. got a bad reax
dropped it down to a much lower dosage ..spread over an entire day ... .... so far everything is working like it should.. feel calmer.. better sleep ....maybe a little more mental clarity.. grter tolerance for b12.
Early days. Encouraging so far.
Dog person looked at my hair charts..& says i have low B2 stores and iron transport problems etc....& according to what Rich said I had a marker on an OAT last year that should have tipped me off to low b2.. .but I didn't know that at the time. Then I went and took tons of B6, which probably completely hollowed out any B2 stores I had. Just speculating. need to test to be sure.
So....bottom line.. I think my B2 stores are low.. so I may tolerate more supplementation than others. DOn't take my dosages as your guide. Just run a test.

I think the iron transport/low oxygen part fits with some of the DAN! research. I think neubrander thinks the kids are not getting enof oxygen to the brain.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Thanks ag. I took less than you, but had a strong reaction anyway. Am going to back down to just one dose of 12.5 today, and let my body process the crud that came up.

I also took a lot of B6 this past year, so I think my B2 must have been depleted as well.

WHAT TEST are you referring to.. when you say "Just speculating. need to test to be sure." ?

 

[aquariusgirl]

OAT or ELN B2 test per Rich's post.
I think I skipped a day after feeling bad....then went back at it.. still feeling out the right dosage.

 

[Dreambirdie]

OAT or ELN B2 test per Rich's post.
I think I skipped a day after feeling bad....then went back at it.. still feeling out the right dosage.

THANKS. Me too, re: feeling out the right dosage.

 

[topaz]

Regarding a B complex. There are way too many of the B's you don't store in your body, that are contained in a complex. And by taking all of them, as soon as they are absorbed, B2 activates them so that lowers the B2. Then the body realizes you don't need that quantity of them and you urinate them away. So you do not get any benefit of additional B's that aren't stored and you only tax the B2 storage locations in your body.

Dog Person

I would think there is little doubt that a multi B is beneficial, however this is new info to me about B2 being depleted due to its role as an co-enzyme/activator.

Do you have any suggestion as to the additional quantity of B2 to take when one takes a multi-B (over and above that contained in the multi)? And the timing of taking additional B2?

Thank you