B2 I love you!

[Dreambirdie]

Okay Brenda. The B2 protocol that Dog Person suggested to you has taken off like wildfire.

Dog Person--I think it would be a good idea if things could be simplified and explained some time soon. I don't think we need a lengthy paper. In fact, most people here do not have the brain power to digest long papers. But a concise summary of your assessment of the hair tests would be a good idea... and some general suggestions on how to proceed with correcting the nutritional imbalances would be helpful. THANKS.

 

[gu3vara]

I second what Dreambirdie said. I'd be interested to know too. I asked my wife to buy some riboflavin today and will stop all the other b's for a few days to measure its effect. You are saying that regular riboflavin is just fine right? No need for the 5 phosphate one?

Thx!

 

[Rand56]

Okay Brenda. The B2 protocol that Dog Person suggested to you has taken off like wildfire.

Dog Person--I think it would be a good idea if things could be simplified and explained some time soon. I don't think we need a lengthy paper. In fact, most people here do not have the brain power to digest long papers. But a concise summary of your assessment of the hair tests would be a good idea... and some general suggestions on how to proceed with correcting the nutritional imbalances would be helpful. THANKS.

hi Dreambirdie

I hear what you are saying but I don't know if things can be "simplified" if a protocol is based on any individuals particular needs. Also, as far as I'm concerned, Dog Person can put it in any format she chooses. She has already been very nice in spending time and energy giving all of us insights on what she knows. Questions can always be asked later if someone doesn't understand completely what she is saying or how she presents it.

 

[brenda]

I back up what Rand has said. I know that it is very difficult to be patient when we are all desperate to feel better, but we must understand what we are doing with this protocol as iron stores in the liver can be released too quickly.

Dog Person will be educating us when she is ready and I am sure she will answer questions once the thinking behind it is explained and we have had time to take it in so that we can ask educated questions and not be wasting her precious time, whereas we who are not working have plenty of time.

 

[Dreambirdie]

hi Dreambirdie

I hear what you are saying but I don't know if things can be "simplified" if a protocol is based on any individuals particular needs. Also, as far as I'm concerned, Dog Person can put it in any format she chooses. She has already been very nice in spending time and energy giving all of us insights on what she knows. Questions can always be asked later if someone doesn't understand completely what she is saying or how she presents it.

From my understanding of what Dog Person has said so far, she was seeing a consistent pattern in our hair mineral tests, which she thought was pointing to similar deficiencies. I do not think it's too much of leap to jump from those observations to a general simplified protocol. Isn't that what Rich did with the SIMPLIFIED methylation protocol? ... and then adding "cofactors" as needed per individual.

And yes, Dog Person could put her conclusions in any format she chooses, but my preference is the simpler the better, and that is what I am requesting. I think that most people here have cognitive impairments that make reading long papers very challenging. It would be nice if she could take that into account.

 

[brenda]

Dreambirdie

I hear you but it would be best if the paper gives us all that she knows so that those who have less cognitive disfunction can learn as much as possible, and those who do grasp it quickly, I am sure will be around to help others by pointing out where the information they seek is and perhaps explaining it. This is what goes on with the methylation protocol with Freddd and rich coming in for more personal queries and advice.

Brenda

 

[gu3vara]

I can say that after 7 months of methylation protocol, my nails are worse than ever, I can see bumps and ridges on nails that weren't as bad to begin with. My nails are also more purple at the bottom. This B2 deficiency does make some sense, I guess it could be more apparent after taking those high doses of all B vitamins.

 

[Dog Person]

This is to address your questions regarding folic acid, whatever the form.

You may have read that taking the active form of folic acid is absorbed (which is the same form as in foods) but:

The active form (polyglutamated form) cannot be absorbed in the intestine. To be absorbed, it must have the glutamates removed (except the one that is an integral part of folate) by the enzyme gamma-glutamyl hydrolase (also called conjugase), so it would not be useful to take this form.

Once absorbed and taken through the intestines into the body, the glutamates are added on. It is also reduced to the tetrahydrofolate form . (Here is where it uses a riboflavin enzymes to reduce it.)

Hence, any form of folic acid will require riboflavin to reduce it.

 

[SJB944]

This is to address your questions regarding folic acid, whatever the form.

You may have read that taking the active form of folic acid is absorbed (which is the same form as in foods) but:

The active form (polyglutamated form) cannot be absorbed in the intestine. To be absorbed, it must have the glutamates removed (except the one that is an integral part of folate) by the enzyme gamma-glutamyl hydrolase (also called conjugase), so it would not be useful to take this form.

Once absorbed and taken through the intestines into the body, the glutamates are added on. It is also reduced to the tetrahydrofolate form . (Here is where it uses a riboflavin enzymes to reduce it.)

Hence, any form of folic acid will require riboflavin to reduce it.

Are you saying this also applies to L-methylfolate?

 

[chilove]

Wow.. I'm very interested as I get frequent eye inflammation and sore throats I'm on high doses of the methyl b12 and folate. Can't wait to hear more...

 

[lampkld2]

Would active b vitatmins (MB12 and 5mthf) also deplete riboflavin? Any reason why the would cause increased inflammation/neuropathy? Can B6 independant neuropathy indicate some kind of riboflavin issue?

 

[dannybex]

Would active b vitatmins (MB12 and 5mthf) also deplete riboflavin? Any reason why the would cause increased inflammation/neuropathy? Can B6 independant neuropathy indicate some kind of riboflavin issue?

My understanding is that riboflavin is needed to convert b6 into it's active form.

When I would take b6 in even tiny amounts, within a day or two tingling and numbness would develop or worsen in my feet (and also sometimes in my hands). This does not happen if I take approximately 25-30 mgs of riboflavin with the 10mgs of b6.

 

[SJB944]

Does the same thing happen dannybex if you take P5P (the active form of b6)?

My understanding is that riboflavin is needed to convert b6 into it's active form.

When I would take b6 in even tiny amounts, within a day or two tingling and numbness would develop or worsen in my feet (and also sometimes in my hands). This does not happen if I take approximately 25-30 mgs of riboflavin with the 10mgs of b6.

 

[richvank]

This is to address your questions regarding folic acid, whatever the form.

You may have read that taking the active form of folic acid is absorbed (which is the same form as in foods) but:

The active form (polyglutamated form) cannot be absorbed in the intestine. To be absorbed, it must have the glutamates removed (except the one that is an integral part of folate) by the enzyme gamma-glutamyl hydrolase (also called conjugase), so it would not be useful to take this form.

Once absorbed and taken through the intestines into the body, the glutamates are added on. It is also reduced to the tetrahydrofolate form . (Here is where it uses a riboflavin enzymes to reduce it.)

Hence, any form of folic acid will require riboflavin to reduce it.

Hi, dog person.

As I understand it, folic acid is the oxidized form of folate, and to be used in the body it must be reduced to tetrahydrofolate. However, this is done by two sequential reactions catalyzed by DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase), which requires NADPH, but does not require riboflavin.

The active forms of folate that are found in natural foods, which are mainly 5-methyltetrahydrofolate and folinic acid are already reduced, and do not require riboflavin or anything else to reduce them. The gut normally has no difficulty removing the extra glutamates and absorbing the natural folate forms, using the enzyme you mentioned.

You may be thinking of the MTHFR enzyme, which converts 5,10 methylene tetrahydrofolate to 5-methyltetrahydrofolate. This enzyme does require FAD as a cofactor, which is one of the two coenzyme forms of riboflavin.

I continue to read your posts with interest. I would like to better understand the metabolism of the minerals and the interpretation of the various tests taken together: hair mineral analysis, urine toxic and essential element analysis, fecal mineral analysis, and blood mineral analyses (RBC, whole blood and plasma). It would be great to be able to make sense of all these.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Dog Person]

Rich,

But how do you get to NADPH?

 

[richvank]

Rich,

But how do you get to NADPH?

O.K., I get it. Both pathways for the synthesis of NAD (from either niacin or tryptophan) require ATP, as does the phosphorylation of NAD to form NADP, which is the basis for NADPH. Most of the ATP is made in the mitochondria, and the mitochondria use riboflavin in several reactions. So, it's hard to do much without riboflavin, isn't it? -)

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Dog Person]

Hi Rich,

I like your smile moment! It's really quite amazing how most everything tracks back to riboflavin. I'm always happy when others "get it" too.

Had several clients that tried supplementing their liver failure dogs with SAM-e. It worked for a short time, then the liver enzymes went up again after going down. Took the dogs off of SAM-e, put them on riboflavin and the enzymes have stayed normal for over a year.

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich,

I like your smile moment! It's really quite amazing how most everything tracks back to riboflavin. I'm always happy when others "get it" too.

Had several clients that tried supplementing their liver failure dogs with SAM-e. It worked for a short time, then the liver enzymes went up again after going down. Took the dogs off of SAM-e, put them on riboflavin and the enzymes have stayed normal for over a year.

Hi, dog person.

Here's a P.S. to my previous post: I see that an enzyme in the pathway from tryptophan to NAD, i.e. kynurenine monooxygenase, requires FAD as a cofactor. So there's another place where riboflavin sneaks in! -)

Keep up the good work on the dogs (and the people!)

One more thing: In the methylation cycle, where SAMe is produced, the enzyme methionine synthase reductase also needs FAD, so riboflavin deficiency will mess up both the folate metabolism and the methylation cycle. It's an important cofactor in the methylation treatments for ME/CFS that Freddd and I have suggested.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[SJB944]

Rich,

Where does this leave the likes of methylfolate?

Cheers
SJB

 

[richvank]

Rich,

Where does this leave the likes of methylfolate?

Cheers
SJB

Hi, SJB.

When methylfolate is made naturally in the cells, MTHFR does it, and it needs riboflavin. If you supply methylfolate as a supplement, then it feeds the methionine synthase reaction, which needs methionine synthase reductase to keep it going, and that in turn also requires riboflavin. If a person is deficient in riboflavin, it will block recovery when using the methylation protocols for these reasons as well as for other reasons, involving the energy metabolism, the neurotransmitters metabolism, and others. That's why riboflavin is part of both the simplified methylation protocol and Freddd's "active B12 protocol."

Best regards,

Rich