B2 I love you!

[fozzaw]

It would be good, if you don't mind... if you could post this as well on the thread under General Treatment, Hair Mineral Testing so we can see what Dog Person thinks about this? Do you have any references where I could read about the role of free thyroid hormone with regards to Riboflavin absorption?

The mention of thyroid hormone in riboflavin conversion is something you will find in a good textbook on nutrition and biochemistry, as it is well-established knowledge. Conversion also depends on ATP. Riboflavin deficiency also retards T4 to T3 conversion, so it is a bit circular. ACTH will increase conversion in the adrenal cortex, liver and kidney, so secondary hypoadrenalism may be another source of problems. Aldosterone is also suspected of influencing conversion in the kidneys. I suspect many of the people who are sick enough to seek answers on this forum are unable to do conversion at a useful rate, and a side-by-side trial would show if that's true.

 

[adreno]

The mention of thyroid hormone in riboflavin conversion is something you will find in a good textbook on nutrition and biochemistry, as it is well-established knowledge. Conversion also depends on ATP. Riboflavin deficiency also retards T4 to T3 conversion, so it is a bit circular. ACTH will increase conversion in the adrenal cortex, liver and kidney, so secondary hypoadrenalism may be another source of problems. Aldosterone is also suspected of influencing conversion in the kidneys. I suspect many of the people who are sick enough to seek answers on this forum are unable to do conversion at a useful rate, and a side-by-side trial would show if that's true.

But, as I understand it, FMN is dephosphorylated before entering cells. So what would we achieve by using the active form?

 

[fozzaw]

Just out of interest what dosage of sublingual FMN are you taking, and does it need to be taken multiple times a day like riboflavin??? Am thinking of trying both to compare.

I found diminishing returns with more than 25mg/day but that's a function of my current situation and not very relevant to what someone else would feel better with. I have found it most effective before a daytime nap or sleeping at night, I put it under my tongue just before I actually go to sleep. I found it stimulating the first couple times but had no problems sleeping with it after that.

 

[Dreambirdie]

WHAT is FMN? Is it a certain form of B2?

 

[fozzaw]

But, as I understand it, FMN is dephosphorylated before entering cells. So what would we achieve by using the active form?

It just works better. Have you tried it yourself? If so what was your impression of it compared to riboflavin?

How riboflavin actually gets into cells is not fully understood. For example, this paper from 2005 mentions:

Riboflavin transport proteins operating in the plasma membrane thus have an important role in the absorption of the vitamin. However, their sequences remained elusive, and not a single eukaryotic riboflavin transporter is known to date.

(and then it goes on to describe a newly discovered transporter that likely exists in humans)

http://www.jbc.org/content/280/48/39809.long

Also considering that only FAD gets past the blood brain barrier, I think these allow the possibility that sublingual FMN is more effective than oral riboflavin through means that aren't understood yet.

 

[Rand56]

WHAT is FMN? Is it a certain form of B2?

hi Dreambirdie

FMN is Riboflavin 5 Phosphate

 

[Dreambirdie]

Thanks Rand.

I have had STRONG reactions to just minimal amounts of regular B2, as in 2 doses of 12.5 mg/day. Because I have been having nasty ongoing viral symptoms for the past month, this is making dosing the B2 even more confusing. AND... on top of all that, spring is my worst season. The pollen affects my brain in very negative ways.

So I am going to have to stop the B2 for now, wait until I feel more stable, and figure out how much is optimal at a later date.

 

[adreno]

It just works better. Have you tried it yourself? If so what was your impression of it compared to riboflavin?

How riboflavin actually gets into cells is not fully understood. For example, this paper from 2005 mentions:



(and then it goes on to describe a newly discovered transporter that likely exists in humans)

http://www.jbc.org/content/280/48/39809.long

Also considering that only FAD gets past the blood brain barrier, I think these allow the possibility that sublingual FMN is more effective than oral riboflavin through means that aren't understood yet.

"As only dephosphorylated vitamers can be transported into the cells (Coburn et al., 2003) the bioavailability of intact pyridoxal 5-phosphate upon oral intake would be low. Bioavailability of vitamin B6 from pyridoxal 5-phosphate requires hydrolysis of the phosphate group before absorption through the intestinal layer may occur."

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/afc_ej760_pyridoxal_op_en,0.pdf

I presume the same would be the case for riboflavin 5 phosphate.

I made a thread about this:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?p=249106

 

[fozzaw]

"As only dephosphorylated vitamers can be transported into the cells (Coburn et al., 2003) the bioavailability of intact pyridoxal 5-phosphate upon oral intake would be low. Bioavailability of vitamin B6 from pyridoxal 5-phosphate requires hydrolysis of the phosphate group before absorption through the intestinal layer may occur."

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/afc_ej760_pyridoxal_op_en,0.pdf

I presume the same would be the case for riboflavin 5 phosphate.

I made a thread about this:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?p=249106

Have you factored in the metabolic costs and losses from the point of ingestion to riboflavin in plasma, especially in those with digestive and metabolic issues?

 

[Rand56]

Thanks Rand.

I have had STRONG reactions to just minimal amounts of regular B2, as in 2 doses of 12.5 mg/day. Because I have been having nasty ongoing viral symptoms for the past month, this is making dosing the B2 even more confusing. AND... on top of all that, spring is my worst season. The pollen affects my brain in very negative ways.

So I am going to have to stop the B2 for now, wait until I feel more stable, and figure out how much is optimal at a later date.

Dreambirdie

I just started trialing B-2 about a week ago. Have not done a hair analysis as of yet. I figured with all the craze here about B-2 I'm gonna trial it. I've tried numerous supps before so I figure why not this. DP mentioned before that longitudenal ridges on the nails can be a sign of deficiency and I've had them on my nails for as long as I can remember. I'm going slow..just taking a couple of the regular Riboflavin 12.5 mg's each twice a day and a 10mg of Douglas Labs Riboflavin 5 Phosphate before I go to bed. I actually bought the R5P prior to reading on here about what DP said there is no added benefit to taking this since it's dephosphoralated before entering cells..but heck I bought it already so might as well use it up.

I'm not really having any strong detox reactions as of yet. The only nuisance so far is some extra itching, predominantly on the back of my hands and forearms. I guess this doesn't mean to say that I won't start having stronger reactions to it..don't know yet. As a matter of fact I am starting to see a slight increase in energy but maybe this is placebo..too early to tell yet. I'll know better the longer I take it.

Speaking of hair analysis and since I have never done one before, do you or does anyone else know how long I would have to stop taking supps before I take a hair sample?

 

[adreno]

Have you factored in the metabolic costs and losses from the point of ingestion to riboflavin in plasma, especially in those with digestive and metabolic issues?

No, I haven't factored those in. I can see how taking a sublingual version could help those people.

I don't presume to be an expert on this, just trying to find out if activated B vitamins are actually absorbed and/or utilized better, especially since DP said there are no advantages to them.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Dreambirdie

I'm not really having any strong detox reactions as of yet. The only nuisance so far is some extra itching, predominantly on the back of my hands and forearms. I guess this doesn't mean to say that I won't start having stronger reactions to it..don't know yet. As a matter of fact I am starting to see a slight increase in energy but maybe this is placebo..too early to tell yet. I'll know better the longer I take it.

Speaking of hair analysis and since I have never done one before, do you or does anyone else know how long I would have to stop taking supps before I take a hair sample?

Hi Rand--

My strong reactions (initially to 3 doses, and then 2 doses of 12.5 mg) included: intense spaceyness and a sedated feeling, within an hour after taking each of my first 3 doses, followed by coughing up orange yellow mucous the next morning, followed by a hyperactive toxic feeling. which I usually get when I detox heavy metals, and then severe itching on my hands--which I have NEVER gotten before.

I have a lot of lead and arsenic in my hair, and other metals have showed up in the past. So I expect taking the B2 is going to mobilize more of this, which I can't handle right now.

I think it would take 6 weeks for the hair to show the changes in supplement routine that you start now. But I am not sure.

 

[Rand56]

Dreambirdie

Ok then I am not the only one who is getting itching on the hands. I actually "hope" it is a detox reaction and not just an allergic reaction to maybe one of the fillers in the regular Riboflavin I'm taking. Also, I didn't mean to imply I am only getting itching on the back of my hands and forearms, I get it randomly and infrequently on other areas of my body but it's just not as prominent as it is on my hands and forearms. Actually I have gotten itching before when when I have done other detox type regimens so maybe I am detoxing to some degree. The only other time I can remember getting really bad itching from a supplement is when I took DHEA capsules. That drove me nuts and I stopped taking it.

 

[fozzaw]

No, I haven't factored those in. I can see how taking a sublingual version could help those people.

I don't presume to be an expert on this, just trying to find out if activated B vitamins are actually absorbed and/or utilized better, especially since DP said there are no advantages to them.

My understanding is that intestinal absorption is very limited in the best of cases (I forget the actual numbers).

If I remember my chemistry correctly, it is expensive to phosphorylate anything, so think of the losses from phosphorylating riboflavin in the gut only to dephosphorylate it again to enter plasma. Dephosphorylation liberates energy so it would actually be metabolically easy to do. So, if I think about this further, saying a vitamin needs to be dephosphorylated before entering a cell is a red herring.

 

[brenda]

Dreambirdie

My hair test shows high lead,titanium, arsenic and barium. Lead is 6.1 (<1.0). I dont feel that they are being mobilised at present. I am tired today but not showing other signs of detoxification, even the sweating has stopped. I always get pain in the back of my neck when I herx. I have had some mild itching but nothing much. I have noticed my appetite is somewhat less which is to be expected I guess if the body is given what it has been seeking. Nothing much else is happening. The sublingual dose did not make any discernible difference. I am sure you dont need to come off supplements before giving a hair sample.

Brenda

 

[adreno]

My understanding is that intestinal absorption is very limited in the best of cases (I forget the actual numbers).

If I remember my chemistry correctly, it is expensive to phosphorylate anything, so think of the losses from phosphorylating riboflavin in the gut only to dephosphorylate it again to enter plasma. Dephosphorylation liberates energy so it would actually be metabolically easy to do. So, if I think about this further, saying a vitamin needs to be dephosphorylated before entering a cell is a red herring.

Ok, I can certainly see an advantage if the cost of phosphorylation is high (in terms of ATP, I presume).

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the red herring statement, though?

In this book (Introduction to Clinical Nutrition), it is also stated that phosphorylated vitamins don't readily cross cell membranes:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Yw...l=en&sa=X&ei=EOhtT_PQN4eDOoOI8fIF&redir_esc=y

 

[Rand56]

hi Brenda

Since I have never done a hair analysis before, do you or does anyone else know if you need a doctors request to order one or can I do this on my own? I currently have no health insurance and would rather not seek out a doctor..and pay extra to him/her just to order one for me. I'm fed up with doctors anyway when they have previously told me there is nothing wrong with me and all I need is "yet another" antidepressant.

 

[Dog Person]

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to help you understand what is occurring. When you now have taken the B2 (any kind), without adding lots of other supplements that normally depleted it and did not allow you to see any observable effect from B2, you now are seeing effects. The first thing your body did was convert it to an enzyme, release iron from the liver storage, send the iron to the bone marrow to start manufacturing new RBC's with hemoglobin, instead of zinc and lead. The body always wants to do life critical things with vitamins first. Oxygenating tissues and iron used in the vision cycle and antioxidant systems and immune systems is considered life critical. But using B2 for fatty acid synthesis needed for soft skin, is not life critical. So, since you now have iron out, lead and zinc released, the lead needs to be quelched with radical quelching systems (requires B2), the zinc asks more of B2 as you wrote in a precious email, and the iron that is now constantly being put into RBC's, used and recycled again wants more B2 to keep this process going. So your skin, especially the hands will show that you now have even less B2, even though you took more B2 than previously before starting. It's because what you took, started a process, a chain reaction that now wants more B2. But since the liver is not functioning adequately enough yet to keep up with the demands that any additional amount of B2 would be given, (like when Brenda was sweating or Dreambirdie got all congested), there is always a lag - which reveils the B2 deficiency. Hope that helps you understand little. Just go slower if you have adverse symptoms, by taking less of each dose or less doses per day or take a day off. You seriously do not want adverse symtpoms. You want to move forward comfortably so you know you are not placing oxidative stress on your body.

I know I said I'd only post on the hair thread, but hope this was ok to reply here. I want you to under stand what I've seen and work with every day.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Just go slower if you have adverse symptoms, by taking less of each dose or less doses per day or take a day off. You seriously do not want adverse symtpoms. You want to move forward comfortably so you know you are not placing oxidative stress on your body.

My sentiments exactly. I am not interested in any more adverse effects, as I have had enough of those for one lifetime.

What I wonder now is HOW LOW of a DOSE of B2 would still be effective? What about just 5 mg/day? Or even just a speck?

I know several people who took only a speck of the B12, because that's all they could handle. More than that sent them into heavy detox.

 

[garcia]

Also considering that only FAD gets past the blood brain barrier, I think these allow the possibility that sublingual FMN is more effective than oral riboflavin through means that aren't understood yet.

Hi fozzaw, do you have a source for the above? I ask because it seems to contradict my direct experience of having immediate brain-effects from sublingual absorption of riboflavin.