B2 I love you!

[Asklipia]

Is there any other information out there about other B vitamins depleting B2 besides dogperson's theory? And was there ever a ratio recommended. It seems like all the B vitamins are important for various functions in the body.

No ratio that I know of. I suppose this would be an individual thing since people have widely different diets.
All Bs may be needed by the body, but not all may be missing.
At one point years ago we took mixed B vitamins for around six months. We did not get worse from it, but not better either.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Dog Person did specify that the folate was to come from food. She is very much against supplemental folic acid.

With all of the talk about supplements here, it is easy to forget that nutrients also come from food*. If your diet/supplement regimen is working for you, there is no reason to change it.

In further reviewing my notes I see that she said that B5 (pantothenic acid) is also very important. If you ever feel like changing something, that might be a good place to start, especially if you think you have methylation problems.

*Actually, nutrients primarily come from food, they also come from supplements.

 

[Asklipia]

Thank you for going over your notes, Little Bluestem!
I don't think we have any methylation problems anymore. We have loads of energy, in a quiet and effective way.
No problem swimming 1200 meters a day, easily and actually quite relaxing. No sleep problems, no digestion problems.
Very few problems left, which are I would say left overs, things the body could not cope with for years and steadily worsened.
I feel very hopeful.
In fact i feel like we got rid of some kind of infection which was with us for years, which is why I think there is a very important link to Th1 immunity and it being helped by helping the parasympathetic.

In the 19th century, the use of fake folates in industrial and army food became suddenly very important. This is a way to endlessly stimulate the sympathetic system, leaving no time for the parasympathetic to do its job.
I suspect this lead to the burst of tuberculosis, which is a mycoplasma, and should come under Th1 immunity.

And I think the actual explosion of a terrible TB epidemic now in the Fast East may be due to the overwhelming use of MSG in many forms in these countries.
I am trying now not really to supplement, as you see we only now take B2, manganese andsome menatetrenone. A big part of what we do has been the Bains Derivatifs, and going to bed at 9.30 at night. All of this to balance the solar and lunar sides.

With time we will stop the menatetrenone too, as soon as we feel on our teeth we do not need it anymore.
B2 I feel is still doing some work, I feel it moving along some lines in my body ten minutes after I take it, so for the moment we go on, as well as manganese.
Lots of good wishes,
Asklipia

 

[Lotus97]

As far as nutrients from food goes. If someone is eating whole grains they will be getting plenty of manganese. Around 3-5 mg/day. Beans, nuts, pineapple and raspberries are also high in manganese:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w315.pdf

 

[dbkita]

As far as nutrients from food goes. If someone is eating whole grains they will be getting plenty of manganese. Around 3-5 mg/day. Beans, nuts, pineapple and raspberries are also high in manganese:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w315.pdf

Except absorption is relatively low so the amount you count in food or supplements is not the amount you end up with.
Absorption is (I think) about 3-7% depending on health, age, GI tract, etc.

Remember though the entire human body has a store of 10-20mg total dependent on body weight. The issue with manganese toxicity is for those with kidney problems or those with chronic over-exposure via the airway / lungs.
Still I wonder about the merits of people who take 30 mg per day in joint supplements, etc. for long periods of time. Yes they only get 3-7% of that but that is still a large fraction of their total body store every day which could pile-up if other systems (i.e. the kidneys) are not up to par.

 

[Lotus97]

I saw a company selling a 40 mg manganese supplement. I was wondering what that was for because it seemed kind of high. I assume you'd have to supplement with copper or that amount would deplete your body of copper since manganese is a copper antagonist.

 

[dbkita]

I saw a company selling a 40 mg manganese supplement. I was wondering what that was for because it seemed kind of high. I assume you'd have to supplement with copper or that amount would deplete your body of copper since manganese is a copper antagonist.

Many things are copper antagonists (zinc, molybdenum, manganese, etc.).

Personally my serum Cu levels had been very low for a long time as well as ceruloplasminin. In the past taking Zn used to make me really tired. On the other hand if I took Cu I felt like *bleep*.

A couple months ago my doctor suggested Mo for sulfite processing and more zinc. I was like huh won't that kill copper, he said lets do it for a couple months and re-measure and also do a hair analysis. Note this was the first time I took Zn and Mo together. Guess what ... my copper went up in the serum (20 points) and the ceruloplasminin went from like 2.5% percentile to like 25% percentile Then hair analysis showed low Cu in the interstitial space though the Zn / Cu ratio was ok. My serum zinc was ok but my hair molybdenum was still really low and the hair zinc also low.

Personally I don't know where it is all headed but the 30 mg of zinc and 450 mg of Mo was a good move. Maybe I get plenty of copper in my diet. Dunno. I don't supplement with copper at this point. Copper scares the *bleep* out of me for multiple reasons.

So I don't think the kinetics is as simple as antagonist and agonist. There are multiple variables methinks.

 

[Lotus97]

Many things are copper antagonists (zinc, molybdenum, manganese, etc.).

Personally my serum Cu levels had been very low for a long time as well as ceruloplasminin. In the past taking Zn used to make me really tired. On the other hand if I took Cu I felt like *bleep*.

A couple months ago my doctor suggested Mo for sulfite processing and more zinc. I was like huh won't that kill copper, he said lets do it for a couple months and re-measure and also do a hair analysis. Note this was the first time I took Zn and Mo together. Guess what ... my copper went up in the serum (20 points) and the ceruloplasminin went from like 2.5% percentile to like 25% percentile Then hair analysis showed low Cu in the interstitial space though the Zn / Cu ratio was ok. My serum zinc was ok but my hair molybdenum was still really low and the hair zinc also low.

Personally I don't know where it is all headed but the 30 mg of zinc and 450 mg of Mo was a good move. Maybe I get plenty of copper in my diet. Dunno. I don't supplement with copper at this point. Copper scares the *bleep* out of me for multiple reasons.

So I don't think the kinetics is as simple as antagonist and agonist. There are multiple variables methinks.

It sounds like even if you get a hair analysis test you still don't really know for sure what's going on unless you know how to interpret the results. Cutler says that people with mercury toxicity might test low mercury on a hair analysis, but the other minerals will be messed up.

I heard someone say RBC was good, but it sounds like your doctor knows what they're doing so maybe that's not always the case.

I've considered a possible copper toxicity for myself so I stopped taking copper, but I'm also not taking manganese because I thought that deplete my body of too much copper since I'm taking a lot of zinc and molydenum. I get manganese and copper from my diet so I guess I'm ok. Taking the zinc hasn't calmed me down even though I've heard other people besides you say that it can. Although some people say that taking a lot of zinc is good for copper toxicity I've also heard people say that taking a lot will cause your body to dump toxic metals. I've thought about getting tested, but I don't really know how reliable the tests are especially after what you said.

 

[Little Bluestem]

A couple months ago my doctor suggested Mo for sulfite processing and more zinc. I was like huh won't that kill copper, he said lets do it for a couple months and re-measure and also do a hair analysis.
...

Personally I don't know where it is all headed but the 30 mg of zinc and 450 mg of Mo was a good move.

That is more Mo than I would take if I were not under a health-care practitioner's supervision (which dbkita was). When I bought my second supple of Mo, one of the health store staff was haranguing me about how dangerous it was and how terrible the overdose effects were. I cut my dose from 300 to 150 mg until I could get another hair mineral test and found out I was still low.

So I don't think the kinetics is as simple as antagonist and agonist. There are multiple variables methinks.

Methinks the same.

 

[dbkita]

It sounds like even if you get a hair analysis test you still don't really know for sure what's going on unless you know how to interpret the results. Cutler says that people with mercury toxicity might test low mercury on a hair analysis, but the other minerals will be messed up.

I heard someone say RBC was good, but it sounds like your doctor knows what they're doing so maybe that's not always the case.

I've considered a possible copper toxicity for myself so I stopped taking copper, but I'm also not taking manganese because I thought that deplete my body of too much copper since I'm taking a lot of zinc and molydenum. I get manganese and copper from my diet so I guess I'm ok. Taking the zinc hasn't calmed me down even though I've heard other people besides you say that it can. Although some people say that taking a lot of zinc is good for copper toxicity I've also heard people say that taking a lot will cause your body to dump toxic metals. I've thought about getting tested, but I don't really know how reliable the tests are especially after what you said.

I have zero mercury. Zero amalgams. Zero cavities. Hate fish. Zero measured in urine after chelation attempts (which drained my iron btw and sucked), zero in blood tests, zero in Genova Diagnostics RBC and zero in hair analysis.

For heavy metals hair analysis if done right is the about the best (certainly in addition with RBC values). In fact hair analysis is now the one of the standards of assessing heavy metals for the EPA and other government agencies. I would be more suspicious about mineral measurements in hair analysis than heavy metals. But I would trust heavy metal RBC and hair analysis results a hundred times more than some random DMPS provoked urine test you order from Doctor's Data or similar company.

Sorry but I think some people (including Dr Cutler) ... and yes this will piss some people on these forums off I am sure ... see heavy metals where there are none. I know for myself I had to deal with two different alternative MDs who wasted a lot of time and money misdiagnosing heavy metal issues for me and missed the much worse problems I had that they never once took into consideration. That does not mean for some it is not a problem but just like in Lyme's disease sometimes five negative tests really mean "NO"!

For me the bigger concern is my aluminum is out of whack (which I suspected based on other clinical considerations) which hammers BH4 and the Krebs cycle .... and my cadmium is strangely higher than expected (maybe tap water in Silicon Valley was not a good idea).

RBC is good. RBC + hair analysis for metals is much better. Just my two cents.

 

[Xara]

I've read that there had been a rsesearch where they sent same hair to different labs, the results the labs reported were quite different from each other.
Also, there seems to be a difference between hair and body, partly because hair never shows the present situation (if I remember correctly it shows the situation from 3 months ago).

RBC, well, yes, but the situation in other more important cells may be different.
So, I have somewhat given up on testing. I go by the feedback my body is giving me. (Besides, it isn't easy to motivate GPs or internists or other specialists to do all sorts of vitamin, mineral or heavy metal tests in my country.)

 

[Lotus97]

I have zero mercury. Zero amalgams. Zero cavities. Hate fish. Zero measured in urine after chelation attempts (which drained my iron btw and sucked), zero in blood tests, zero in Genova Diagnostics RBC and zero in hair analysis.

For heavy metals hair analysis if done right is the about the best (certainly in addition with RBC values). In fact hair analysis is now the one of the standards of assessing heavy metals for the EPA and other government agencies. I would be more suspicious about mineral measurements in hair analysis than heavy metals. But I would trust heavy metal RBC and hair analysis results a hundred times more than some random DMPS provoked urine test you order from Doctor's Data or similar company.

Sorry but I think some people (including Dr Cutler) ... and yes this will piss some people on these forums off I am sure ... see heavy metals where there are none. I know for myself I had to deal with two different alternative MDs who wasted a lot of time and money misdiagnosing heavy metal issues for me and missed the much worse problems I had that they never once took into consideration. That does not mean for some it is not a problem but just like in Lyme's disease sometimes five negative tests really mean "NO"!

For me the bigger concern is my aluminum is out of whack (which I suspected based on other clinical considerations) which hammers BH4 and the Krebs cycle .... and my cadmium is strangely higher than expected (maybe tap water in Silicon Valley was not a good idea).

RBC is good. RBC + hair analysis for metals is much better. Just my two cents.

I just mentioned the thing about mercury as an example of how it's tricky to interpret hair analysis. I wasn't implying that you might have it. I remember you saying before that you had already ruled that out for yourself. What they're saying isn't just that mercury is low on the test, but also that the levels of other minerals which show up on the analysis are screwed up. I don't know if any of this is true. The information comes from the Andy Cutler crowd and I'm not convinced that everything Cutler says about mercury is true.

I went to a doctor for Candida a few years ago and he told me I need to do his chelation IVs because it was caused by heavy metals. He said this before doing any tests BTW. When I asked him later about Lyme and why he never considered that, he said that he thought the chelation would take care of that too.

 

[dbkita]

I've read that there had been a rsesearch where they sent same hair to different labs, the results the labs reported were quite different from each other.
Also, there seems to be a difference between hair and body, partly because hair never shows the present situation (if I remember correctly it shows the situation from 3 months ago).

RBC, well, yes, but the situation in other more important cells may be different.
So, I have somewhat given up on testing. I go by the feedback my body is giving me. (Besides, it isn't easy to motivate GPs or internists or other specialists to do all sorts of vitamin, mineral or heavy metal tests in my country.)

Yep that is why you should use ARL. I am by no means a spokesperson for them but all of the doctors or naturopaths I have come to trust use that lab specifically. Many labs wash the samples ahead of time and ruin the results. Period. Now as far as ARL's suggested supplements, etc. well that is highly debatable.

And yes it does not show the current situation ... which is actually of more benefit when doing an initial analysis for metals. Metals do not drastically change in short order. That is why chelation regimens take a long time.

And sorry I don't believe it is really possible to know if someone has heavy metal issues simply by how they feel. The very nature of the disruption purported by a heavy metal load would almost by definition counteract any accurate self diagnosis.

 

[dbkita]

I just mentioned the thing about mercury as an example of how it's tricky to interpret hair analysis. I wasn't implying that you might have it. I remember you saying before that you had already ruled that out for yourself. What they're saying isn't just that mercury is low on the test, but also that the levels of other minerals which show up on the analysis are screwed up. I don't know if any of this is true. The information comes from the Andy Cutler crowd and I'm not convinced that everything Cutler says about mercury is true.

I went to a doctor for Candida a few years ago and he told me I need to do his chelation IVs because it was caused by heavy metals. He said this before doing any tests BTW. When I asked him later about Lyme and why he never considered that, he said that he thought the chelation would take care of that too.

Yikes. Chelation will in no way fix Candida let alone Lyme's. Gah! I would have gotten a restraining order on that doctor. Eep!

 

[Little Bluestem]

Trace Elements, Inc. also does not wash the hair and got similar results in the test to ARL (and is the company that my dietitian uses).

 

[dbkita]

Trace Elements, Inc. also does not wash the hair and got similar results in the test to ARL (and is the company that my dietitian uses).

Good to know thanks.

 

[Lotus97]

Yikes. Chelation will in no way fix Candida let alone Lyme's. Gah! I would have gotten a restraining order on that doctor. Eep!

I don't think he'd mind. He makes plenty of money. I'm not sure if it's true, but I have read information about Candida and Lyme bacteria feeding off metals. Same with biofilm.

 

[Xara]

Thanks dbkita, thanks Little Bluestem.

I have checked the sites of arltma.com and traceelements.com, I see no prices mentioned so I presume one needs assistance of a professional? Hm, regular practioners won't do hair analysis I'm afraid, not where I live. People who are in to alternative medicine might... But it'll be hard to find one that has no problem being dictated to send my hair to the other side of the ocean, I guess.

 

[dbkita]

Thanks dbkita, thanks Little Bluestem.

I have checked the sites of arltma.com and traceelements.com, I see no prices mentioned so I presume one needs assistance of a professional? Hm, regular practioners won't do hair analysis I'm afraid, not where I live. People who are in to alternative medicine might... But it'll be hard to find one that has no problem being dictated to send my hair to the other side of the ocean, I guess.

Yeah you need a practitioner who has an account with them. Forget the regular doctor route if you just want the test. You can get it usually through chiropractors, naturopaths, even PTs, etc. It was $69 for the full cost for me here in California.

 

[dbkita]

I don't think he'd mind. He makes plenty of money. I'm not sure if it's true, but I have read information about Candida and Lyme bacteria feeding off metals. Same with biofilm.

Depends on the metal. Lots of things feed on iron for example. Not much if anything grows on mercury. Again chelation will NOT fix either Candida or Lyme's. Chelation may address metal detox issues brought on by those organisms infecting the body and allow your immune system more opportunities ... but anyone who proposes chelation will fix those infections on their own is bordering on quackery. Or those who claim they are cured of these infections by chelation never had the original infections in the first place ...