B2 I love you!

[dbkita]

There are things that protect against glutamate toxicity:
estrogen (you can google the studies)
magnesium (glutamate toxicity is caused by magnesium being stripped from the NMDA receptors)
ammonia not out of range (this is the low protein connection...but ammonia is typically only out of range in
high protein diets, low magnesium diets, kidney failure, CBS genetic defects)
There are other things. Google and study NMDA receptors (gating).

Thanks triffid. Yes you are right.

I am actually pretty well versed in NMDA receptor activity given my rare autoimmune disease. You can search on these forums, I have a number of posts discussing with others (especially Adreno) about NMDA receptor activation and various agonists and antagonists. I also think one overlooked aspect is the localized control of glycine and other various cofactors around the neurons on a dendritic branch. That is why blanket generalization about certain molecular entities is dangerous (i.e. "if I take glycine it will automatically activate my NMDA receptors" -- not correct).

But yes I get 1600 mg of magnesium a day for just that reason Estrogen protection is good, but the correlation between estrogen levels in the serum and what is in the brain is not as tight as the medical community would like you to believe. The best test is ultrasensitve estradiol.

Anyways in my other posts there are many other ways to handle glutamate activation of the NMDA receptors.

I think my concerns with ammonia are not that I am anywhere near out of range, but more the fact that the more load the ammonia puts on BH4 the less BH4 I have for NO, peroxynitrite removal, neurotransmitters, the urea cycle, etc.

 

[triffid113]

Yes, I have BH4 issues as well and extreme blood pressure issues to put strain on it as well as the CBS +/+, the MTHFR 1298AC. I think you said elsewhere that my COMT +/+ takes the load off it, but not enough unfortunately as I always test low dopamine (high HVA and HIAA or whatever those metabolites are that says I am ripping through my neurotransmitters for some reason). I have had issues with ataxia due to the low dopamine. I seem to be ok now. I always eat low protein but just by choice. I am good with 80g. So the low protein gives me extra wiggle room I guess. I think we are off topic but if you have any more BH4 info to share I am interested, maybe on some other topic. My father died with no detectable level of BH4.

 

[triffid113]

So... on topic...I'm sorry I can't read this whole topic. Does someone know why insufficient B2 would cause anger issues? Is there some biochemistry to explain that? Is there even a study to prove that?

 

[Lotus97]

So... on topic...I'm sorry I can't read this whole topic. Does someone know why insufficient B2 would cause anger issues? Is there some biochemistry to explain that? Is there even a study to prove that?

I haven't read this whole thread, but I read the last couple pages and it seems there has been some doubt to dogperson's theories. I don't have an opinion one way or another especially since I haven't read the whole thread myself.

 

[triffid113]

This wasn't info I gained from DogPerson. I actually got it from someone on here's doc, who prescribed it for them for anger issues.

 

[xjhuez]

Personally I think the over-production of ammonia can be a big excitotoxic trigger in the CNS that can really imbalance the neurotransmitters and essentially shift body chemistry. I experienced this first hand last week when left to my own devices I ate a 1.5 lbs of hamburger meat and 4 chicken legs at one sitting ... not fun ... all I can say is I am thankful for Yucca for such emergencies.

Do those of you who use Yucca take it when necessary or daily as a prophylactic agent?

 

[Asklipia]

B2 and anger issues :
When angry, your left eye may get irritated. This is because of a deficit in acetylcholine, a hormone that tempers the more severe effects of adrenaline.
B2 is involved in the production of acetylcholine.
Be well!
Asklipia

 

[dbkita]

Do those of you who use Yucca take it when necessary or daily as a prophylactic agent?

Starting to take it as a prophylactic. I mean I eat protein every meal the largest amount at dinner. So I take 490 mg at dinner now. My only issue is it may irritate my upper GI tract a bit. I have to a do a clean differential study on it soon.

 

[Lotus97]

B2 and anger issues :
When angry, your left eye may get irritated. This is because of a deficit in acetylcholine, a hormone that tempers the more severe effects of adrenaline.
B2 is involved in the production of acetylcholine.
Be well!
Asklipia

Does acetylcholine fit in with adrenal dysfunction and norepinephrine levels? If so, how? I found a page that discusses the acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (adrenaline), but I realized I don't have the brainpower right now to make any sense of it.
http://www.cvpharmacology.com/norepinephrine.htm
I'll post the diagram, but there's more information in the link

 

[xjhuez]

Does acetylcholine fit in with adrenal dysfunction and norepinephrine levels? If so, how? I found a page that discusses the acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (adrenaline), but I realized I don't have the brainpower right now to make any sense of it.

I don't have the brainpower either, but I believe part of that diagram shows why I don't have a good reaction to supplemental vitamin d, as it rapidly increases the genetic expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (rate‑limiting enzyme for catecholamine biosynthesis).

tyrosine hydroxyase --> dopamine --> NE

In normal people this is potentially a good thing, but for some reason not for me .

 

[Lotus97]

I don't have the brainpower either, but I believe part of that diagram shows why I don't have a good reaction to supplemental vitamin d, as it rapidly increases the genetic expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (rate‑limiting enzyme for catecholamine biosynthesis).

tyrosine hydroxyase --> dopamine --> NE

In normal people this is potentially a good thing, but for some reason not for me .

I think they do explain the diagram in the link I provided, but even that is too much for me right now Since I also seem to have a problem with NE I was wondering how acetylcholine fit in with it. Does supplemental tyrosine raise NE directly or only indirectly by increasing dopamine which then converts to NE?

 

[xjhuez]

I think they do explain the diagram in the link I provided, but even that is too much for me right now Since I also seem to have a problem with NE I was wondering how acetylcholine fit in with it. Does supplemental tyrosine raise NE directly or only indirectly by increasing dopamine which then converts to NE?

Not sure how acetylcholine fits - that's the part I don't understand.

I wouldn't think supplemental tyrosine would increase NE assuming your tyrosine hydroxylase is normal, as it's the enzyme that limits the conversion.

Interesting link. Seems my issue with vit d (assuming my tyrosine hydroxylase theory is sound) could be a intracellular calcium imbalance and/or an over production of dopamine β-hydroxylase. From what I can tell I never get the dopamine.. just the NE effect.

 

[Lotus97]

Not sure how acetylcholine fits - that's the part I don't understand.

I wouldn't think supplemental tyrosine would increase NE assuming your tyrosine hydroxylase is normal, as it's the enzyme that limits the conversion.

Interesting link. Seems my issue with vit d (assuming my tyrosine hydroxylase theory is sound) could be a intracellular calcium imbalance and/or an over production of dopamine β-hydroxylase. From what I can tell I never get the dopamine.. just the NE effect.

I've been avoiding tyrosine because I was concerned that it would raise norepinephrine, but it only does that indirectly by increasing dopamine? I just ordered some pterostilbene to increase dopamine, but I don't want it turning into NE.

What about SAM-e? I've read that supplementing it would increase norepinephrine. What about the SAMe that's produced through methylation? Is that the same thing as the supplement?

 

[xjhuez]

I've been avoiding tyrosine because I was concerned that it would raise norepinephrine, but it only does that indirectly by increasing dopamine? I just ordered some pterostilbene to increase dopamine, but I don't want it turning into NE.

What about SAM-e? I've read that supplementing it would increase norepinephrine. What about the SAMe that's produced through methylation? Is that the same thing as the supplement?

Pterostilbene? Isn't that from blueberries? Huh.

Raising dopamine is tricky.. If you're COMT -/- it doesn't hang around for long. It gets broken down and converted to other things (above). Also problematic is if you raise tonic dopamine (the background amount that gets released steadily) it makes it harder to feel it rise or spike like you're supposed to.

I've yet to try SAMe - one methylation-related supp at a time for me. I don't know of a direct link between SAMe and NE. I do know that SAMe is a methyl donor, and NE needs methyl, so I suppose there is an indirect link.

 

[dbkita]

Quercetin is a COMT inhibitor and anti-inflammatory.

 

[dbkita]

Does acetylcholine fit in with adrenal dysfunction and norepinephrine levels? If so, how? I found a page that discusses the acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (adrenaline), but I realized I don't have the brainpower right now to make any sense of it.
http://www.cvpharmacology.com/norepinephrine.htm
I'll post the diagram, but there's more information in the link

Not directly. Acetylcholine often acts as in intermediary in the periphery. It is the dominant neurotransmitter in the periphery. Since epinephrine synthesis is in the adrenal glands, acetylcholine is involved. This is NOT where your excess levels of NE are coming from. That is likely directly form the sympathetic nervous system and NOT the adrenals (common misconception). Again I would repeat that the immune system and the sympathetic nervous system are often tied to one another.

Have you made any progress in determining your inflammatory status?
Do you know your COMT and/or MAO-A status for mutations? That can affect NE catabolism.
Are you on any medications that would affect NE uptake?

Nice diagram btw

 

[invisiblejungle]

I've been avoiding tyrosine because I was concerned that it would raise norepinephrine, but it only does that indirectly by increasing dopamine? I just ordered some pterostilbene to increase dopamine, but I don't want it turning into NE.

What about SAM-e? I've read that supplementing it would increase norepinephrine. What about the SAMe that's produced through methylation? Is that the same thing as the supplement?

When I take either tyrosine or phenylalaline, it definitely increases my norepinephrine. Tyrosine is also used as raw material for thyroid hormone, so it could also boost that, and depending on your adrenal hormone status, extra thyroid could be beneficial or harmful.

SAMe would probably increase the production of all neurotransmitters. I would think that supplemental SAMe would have the same effect as endogenous SAMe.

If you're willing to be a guinea pig, you could try a dopamine β-hydroxylase inhibitor. Howver, the only one I've seen available is disulfiram, which can have some pretty nasty side effects.

 

[brenda]

I see that Christines site is back up but with no mention of the study.

 

[Asklipia]

A small update on our journey with Riboflavin (former updates along this thread):
After about a year on Riboflavin, in the beginning of February 2013 we were taking every day
- 50 mg B2 (in two takes)
- 10 mg manganese
- 3 mg melatonin + a little zinc and selenium at night.

as well as 15 mg K2 as MK-4 once a week.

We have been feeling completely normal for a couple of months. So we have stopped the K2. And our teeth went on feeling fine, which I take as a sign that we do not need any K2 any more.
Still taking every day
3 mg melatonin + a little zinc and selenium at night (Dr Pierpaoli's).

25 mg B2 and 10 mg manganese every other day.

The eyes are much better.

I feel we have come out of the storm. Getting ready for the summer!

We felt sick a couple of times, but we know why : once eating strawberries supposed to be organic but which were not, once cooking a chicken supposed to be organic but which had been dipped in some kind of chloride after being killed, once gassed at an airport, once eating too many baked beans which are really too full of folates!

Not too bad, and nothing physical except feeling weird and in danger.
I add this update to remind others that it IS possible to get better and taking supplements is not forever! At some point we woke up and life was back to normal. We do take extreme care in what we eat, where we go (no public places where the air is laden with pesticides), and do not over exert ourselves (but pack up quite a lot of work in a relaxed way).
Lots of good wishes to all!
Be well!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Little Bluestem]

We have been feeling completely normal for a couple of months.

That is really encouraging. I am so happy for you.