B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

An interesting article that was sent to me on mitochondrial function. Thankyou Velha.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680051/

 

[jenbooks]

Thanks Freddd I bookmarked it. If I don't tolerate perque fillers I will contact them.

 

[klutzo]

It wasn't the B12

Hi all,
Just want to let you know it turned out not to be the B12 protocol that was causing all my nausea, shaking, insomnia, tachycardia, and high blood pressure.

It was my failing pancreas. I spent some time in the ER and had some tests, and results showed that what little is left of my pancreas is digesting fat even less than it did at the start of treatment now, despite more than 600 prescription enzymes per month. That easily caused all those symptoms.

By cutting my calories to 1,000 per day and my fat grams to only 20 per day, instead of the 60 grams my doctor says I should be able to handle with the enzymes, I am slowly feeling better.

And, I've easily been able to start right out taking an entire metafolin tablet, the B-Right, and the ADB12 daily with no side-effects. I will be adding the MB12 soon. The only reason I have not added it yet is that there doesn't seem to be enough time in the day, since I am still sleeping late from the extreme weakness from not digesting any nutrients for so long.

I don't want to take B vitamins in the evening because I was taught when studying Naturopathy that they might keep anyone awake if taken that late. I guess I can try putting AB12 and MB12 under my lip at the same time......never thought of that.

My focus is on my pancreas now, since I won't be doing any protocols on this plane of existence much longer if my doc can't get the darn thing to function better.

However, I wanted to let you know, since it was not fair to blame this program for the symptoms in my case. This is not meant to imply that anyone elses' problems are not valid. I am sure they are. We are all different.

klutzo

 

[Freddd]

Hi all,
Just want to let you know it turned out not to be the B12 protocol that was causing all my nausea, shaking, insomnia, tachycardia, and high blood pressure.

It was my failing pancreas. I spent some time in the ER and had some tests, and results showed that what little is left of my pancreas is digesting fat even less than it did at the start of treatment now, despite more than 600 prescription enzymes per month. That easily caused all those symptoms.

By cutting my calories to 1,000 per day and my fat grams to only 20 per day, instead of the 60 grams my doctor says I should be able to handle with the enzymes, I am slowly feeling better.

And, I've easily been able to start right out taking an entire metafolin tablet, the B-Right, and the ADB12 daily with no side-effects. I will be adding the MB12 soon. The only reason I have not added it yet is that there doesn't seem to be enough time in the day, since I am still sleeping late from the extreme weakness from not digesting any nutrients for so long.

I don't want to take B vitamins in the evening because I was taught when studying Naturopathy that they might keep anyone awake if taken that late. I guess I can try putting AB12 and MB12 under my lip at the same time......never thought of that.

My focus is on my pancreas now, since I won't be doing any protocols on this plane of existence much longer if my doc can't get the darn thing to function better.

However, I wanted to let you know, since it was not fair to blame this program for the symptoms in my case. This is not meant to imply that anyone elses' problems are not valid. I am sure they are. We are all different.

klutzo

Hi Klutzo,

I had a friend who cared for a friend of his with pancreatic problems before he died. If you IM me on it we can talk about what he found that worked for her.

I am sorry to hear of the severity of your problems. I'm afraid this comes under the co-morbidity problem heading. It's good to know that it isn't the vitamins causing a problem. 20 gr isn't much fat. How does one's pancreas get into this condition?

There is no problem taking both kinds at the same time. It might even work better.

 

[klutzo]

The pancreas in CFS and Lyme

Hi Fred,
According to Dr. Byron Hyde's CFS study, pancreatic failure is the #3 cause of death in CFS. Also, due to extreme dominance of the sympathetic over the parasympathetic nervous system, Lyme patients who are seeing knowledgeable doctors are told to take enzymes, because this ANS imbalance will produce both maldigestion and malabsorption. Then there is Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has written an excellent paper on how the presence of viruses, parasites, and bacteria in the small bowel of almost all CFS patients (this has been found in FMS too) can get bad enough to stop the pancreas from producing enzymes. The treatment for that involves 3 things, two of which I am deathly allergic to, so there is no point in pursuing it, except to shore up my immunity as best I can. I have also used herbals.

In my case, my GI doctor believes that my obvious gallbladder symptoms were ignored for years because my tests kept coming back normal. 80% of Lyme patients lose their gallbladders. The pathogen love cholesterol. After almost ten years on OTC enzymes, plus being told I had gastroenteritis over and over in the ER when tests came back normal, my doctor ran a special test to prove I had gallstones called an EGD with biliary microscopy. It cost as much as the gallbladder surgery that I had immediately, when the test proved I was full of tiny stones. These stones had been backing up in the ducts for years, and when I ate and my pancreas made enzymes, the enzymes could not get out and ate my pancreas instead. Since the enzymes could not get out, I took more and more OTC enzymes. After the gallbladder was removed, my symptoms improved for awhile, but then came back full force, which is when I was diagnosed with severe exocrine pancreatic insufficiency,a condition that takes an average of 20% off your lifespan, even when properly treated. The symptoms of the condition are pretty gross, so I won't list them here. If anyone has a similar history to what I just described and a strong stomach, PM me and I will describe what would be happening if you had this problem.

Thanks for letting me know I can take both forms of B12 at once. I will PM you about your friend.

klutzo

 

[jenbooks]

Klutzo

What were your gallbladder symptoms?
What is the name of the test you got?

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fred,
According to Dr. Byron Hyde's CFS study, pancreatic failure is the #3 cause of death in CFS. Also, due to extreme dominance of the sympathetic over the parasympathetic nervous system, Lyme patients who are seeing knowledgeable doctors are told to take enzymes, because this ANS imbalance will produce both maldigestion and malabsorption. Then there is Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has written an excellent paper on how the presence of viruses, parasites, and bacteria in the small bowel of almost all CFS patients (this has been found in FMS too) can get bad enough to stop the pancreas from producing enzymes. The treatment for that involves 3 things, two of which I am deathly allergic to, so there is no point in pursuing it, except to shore up my immunity as best I can. I have also used herbals.

In my case, my GI doctor believes that my obvious gallbladder symptoms were ignored for years because my tests kept coming back normal. 80% of Lyme patients lose their gallbladders. The pathogen love cholesterol. After almost ten years on OTC enzymes, plus being told I had gastroenteritis over and over in the ER when tests came back normal, my doctor ran a special test to prove I had gallstones called an EGD with biliary microscopy. It cost as much as the gallbladder surgery that I had immediately, when the test proved I was full of tiny stones. These stones had been backing up in the ducts for years, and when I ate and my pancreas made enzymes, the enzymes could not get out and ate my pancreas instead. Since the enzymes could not get out, I took more and more OTC enzymes. After the gallbladder was removed, my symptoms improved for awhile, but then came back full force, which is when I was diagnosed with severe exocrine pancreatic insufficiency,a condition that takes an average of 20% off your lifespan, even when properly treated. The symptoms of the condition are pretty gross, so I won't list them here. If anyone has a similar history to what I just described and a strong stomach, PM me and I will describe what would be happening if you had this problem.

Thanks for letting me know I can take both forms of B12 at once. I will PM you about your friend.

klutzo

Hi Klutzo,

when the test proved I was full of tiny stones

You have my attention. I had my gall bladder out in 1995. The surgeon commented on how unusual it was. He said it would have made a good black jack. The bladder was a bladder no more but quarter inch thick scar tissue completely packed with sand sized gallstones. I had one extremely severe unidentified episode with 6 or 7 NDE experiences (very interesting though) one terrible night, and then a little later a clearly identifiable gall bladder attack that landed me in the ER at 1 am. I had it removed 3 days later and it helped a lot. I would be interested in finding out the symptoms. The gall baldder itself may have suffered physical trauma in a car wreck from the seat belt catching me under the ribs on the right side. A constant pain for 23 years in my left back under the shoulder blade intensified with the surgery and disappeared after 10 days. The only presurgery test I had specificly for the GB other than some blood tests was ultrasound imaging which looked strange but indicated it should come out. Starting in about 1989 my liver enzyme blood tests were high.

Gall bladder questions have come up at another forum. WOuld you be willing to post your story there?

 

[klutzo]

Symptoms and tests

Hi Jenbooks,
My gallbladder symptoms were stabbing upper right quadrant pain going around to the back under my ribs, swelling of the stomach, esp. on the right side, bone deep chills that kept me awake all night, shaking and nausea, and steatorrhea, starting about an hour after eating dinner or waking me up from a sound sleep. Most GB attacks start between 11 pm and 1 am, which is the time when the GB cleans itself out. I could not sleep on my right side at all, and some foods were guaranteed to provoke an attack, esp. eggs. 95% of all gallbladder sufferers react to eggs.

The tests I had that came back normal were 3 ultrasounds of the gallbladder and 2 HIDA scans of the gallbladder.

The test that finally showed the stones is an EGD with biliary microscopy, which requires you to be under anesthesia and the passage of a lighted tube down into your stomach. It has biopsy attachments. In this case, they inject something into your IV that makes your gallbladder emit fluids. If they see crystals, they know you have stones. I was told that small stones like I had cause the most trouble.

klutzo

 

[klutzo]

Gallbladder

Hi Fred,
Since your GB ended up being like a big scar, I would bet that car accident injured it a lot.

I would LOVE to hear about your NDEs. Anything metaphysical is right up my alley. I will PM you on that since it has nothing to do with this thread.

I will post the info on another forum if you give me the URL, etc.

I will PM you the symptoms of pancreatic insufficiency. Do not read them while you are eating!

A very good web site for the truth about gallbladders and how they are not really an unnecesary organ is www.gallbladderattack.com.

40% of people continue to have problems after surgery, esp. middle-aged females, and as my acupuncturist said, a gallbladder problem is really a liver problem. If you have an imbalance between bile and cholesterol, your liver can still produce stones, which can come down and get stuck in ducts, requiring surgery and causing symptoms. I take silymarin in my multivitamin daily now to help my liver. I am hoping the TMG will help it also, since it is used in naturopathy to treat fatty liver.

klutzo

 

[jenbooks]

Gallbladder NDEs etc

Actually if Freddd didn't mean he almost died but meant he had classic NDE's can he please start a thread about that (separate) as I'm very interested, too.

Well I don't have symptoms like that and eat 3 eggs for breakfast every morning but I still feel lyme & co has done a # on my gallbladder & liver. Sometimes I get headaches with a feeling of congestion there. I feel my hbot chamber has helped the issue. I have considered liver flushes and cleanses but never did one. Often drinking hot water with lemon helps.

 

[leelaplay]

gallbladder and pancreas

Originally Posted by klutzo

According to Dr. Byron Hyde's CFS study, pancreatic failure is the #3 cause of death in CFS. Also, due to extreme dominance of the sympathetic over the parasympathetic nervous system, Lyme patients who are seeing knowledgeable doctors are told to take enzymes, because this ANS imbalance will produce both maldigestion and malabsorption. Then there is Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has written an excellent paper on how the presence of viruses, parasites, and bacteria in the small bowel of almost all CFS patients (this has been found in FMS too) can get bad enough to stop the pancreas from producing enzymes. The treatment for that involves 3 things, two of which I am deathly allergic to, so there is no point in pursuing it, except to shore up my immunity as best I can. I have also used herbals.

hi klutzo
so sorry to hear your news. Hope the immunity boosting etc will re-stabilize you. I saw an amazing documentary once on the body's ability to reprogram itself. A woman whose spine had been severed had lost all feeling and movement from mid-waist down. 7 years later she regained the ability to feel sexual pleasure - her body had developed new pathways to her brain. I hope your pancreas and body can quickly figure out some similar type of rewiring!

I had never heard this before. Thank you for continuing to share your information.

Actually if Freddd didn't mean he almost died but meant he had classic NDE's can he please start a thread about that (separate) as I'm very interested, too.

add my request to this. I too get gall bladder symptoms at times - twice to the ER. Still haven't had it out as it mostly doesn't bother me + have concerns about surgery - general anaesthetic contributed to the first major, long lasting crash and can't handle it well, would like to keep an organ if it still works, numerous friends have had it out only to have the pain continue......

I use turmeric every day for the curcumin's anti-inflammatory properties among other reasons. However, have gotten a few gb twinges since starting it. Found a study (can't find it now), Japanese I think, that said that curcumin causes gall bladder twinges.

best
islandfinn

 

[klutzo]

GB problems in Lyme

Jenbooks,
I have not had antibiotics, but I understand that the main reason Lymies lose their gallbladders at such a high rate is as a side-effect of the IV Rifampin that most late-stage Lymies need to take. For that reason, Actos or Ursodiol is often prescribed simultaneously with the Rifampin. I take Ursodiol now to help prevent severe bile reflux that developed after my GB was removed.

It does not sound like you are having a GB problem. Your liver is most likely toxic, since Borrelia produces the most potent endotoxins known to man. Maybe that is what you are feeling.

Liver cleanses are scary to me. I've done two, but the severe pain with the last one scared me away from any more. It can bring stones down into ducts that are made of calcium instead of cholesterol, and that can result in emergency surgery. 90% of stones are made of cholesterol and the olive oil in the cleanse will soften them and grease their passage, but the other 10% are calcium and olive oil has no effect.

Since I am chicken to try any more cleanses, I just stick with the cleansing power of silymarin aka milk thistle. The only caveat with milk thistle is that it can lower the effectiveness of benzodiazepiene drugs, and I take one. But, I have not noticed any real change. You can also try a drink made from cider vinegar, unsweetened cranberry juice, water and lemon juice. Yes, it tastes as awful as it sounds, so I added a little bit of stevia. In addition, beets are very good for your liver.

klutzo

 

[klutzo]

Curcumin and German Shepards!

Hi Islandfinn,
I also take curcumin, mostly for it's anti-Alzheimer's properties. Lyme has done a major number on my memory.

Exocrine Pancreatic insufficiency is very rare in humans and is usually caused by alcoholism. Since I am a lifelong teetotaler, that cannot be the cause in my case. It is a very common problem in German Shepards, however! As far as I know, there are no German Shepards in my family tree, lol.

You can also have Endocrine Pancreatic insufficiency, which is different, and will cause diabetes, and I am now at higher risk for that, as well as pancreatic cancer. I find your story of that woman's recovery inspiring and it certainly gives one hope.

I am sorry for getting Fred's B12 thread off track. If others are interested, we can start a thread on the gallbladder and pancreas elsewhere....not sure which would be the most appropriate place.

klutzo

 

[Freddd]

http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?p=8618#post8618

Is a thread I started for metaphysics, NDE and so forth. I haven't written up anything for it yet but by all means get started.

 

[Freddd]

Originally Posted by klutzo


hi klutzo
so sorry to hear your news. Hope the immunity boosting etc will re-stabilize you. I saw an amazing documentary once on the body's ability to reprogram itself. A woman whose spine had been severed had lost all feeling and movement from mid-waist down. 7 years later she regained the ability to feel sexual pleasure - her body had developed new pathways to her brain. I hope your pancreas and body can quickly figure out some similar type of rewiring!

I had never heard this before. Thank you for continuing to share your information.



add my request to this. I too get gall bladder symptoms at times - twice to the ER. Still haven't had it out as it mostly doesn't bother me + have concerns about surgery - general anaesthetic contributed to the first major, long lasting crash and can't handle it well, would like to keep an organ if it still works, numerous friends have had it out only to have the pain continue......

I use turmeric every day for the curcumin's anti-inflammatory properties among other reasons. However, have gotten a few gb twinges since starting it. Found a study (can't find it now), Japanese I think, that said that curcumin causes gall bladder twinges.

best
islandfinn

Hi Islandfinn,


A woman whose spine had been severed had lost all feeling and movement from mid-waist down. 7 years later she regained the ability to feel sexual pleasure - her body had developed new pathways to her brain. I hope your pancreas and body can quickly figure out some similar type of rewiring!

Actually this is not as unusual as it may sound. The vegus nerve which is non spinal can carry such signals and allow the experience of orgasms even with a severed spinal cord. It goes directly to the brain stem. The SLIGHTEST TOUCH orgasm stimulator may take advantage of that.

http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.php?story=VivalaVagus
Scientists are investigating the existence of non-genital orgasms suggesting a more pervasive orgasmic process and its role in neuroendocrine and psychological health. There are vaginocervical sensory pathways to the brain that can produce the absence of pain without loss of consciousness (analgesia), release oxytocin, and bypass the spinal cord via the vagus nerve. That is a paraplegic woman can still have cervical and G spot orgasms because the vagina is fed by the vagus nerve while the clitoris by nerves that come out of the spine. This gives weight to the necessity of sexual intercourse for maintaining healthy balance of the nervous system. Also there might be something to the validity of having sex during an awakening to help the parasympathetic nervous system to maintain its own. Orgasm has been described as a mini-seizure of the limbic system and tends to release or lessen deep limbic activity. Dr Amen noticed that depression, sadness, feelings of hopelessness, and automatic negative thoughts correlate with a hyperactive limbic area. The supplements that seem to help limbic hyperactivity best are DL-phenylalanine (DLPA), L-tyrosine, and S-Adenosyl-Methionine (SAMe).

 

[jenbooks]

Klutzo Liver gallbladder thread

Yes--would you start one and perhaps PM Cort to kindly move our gallbladder posts to this thread? That would be great. Liver and gb are surely issues for MANY cfids and lymies.

Come to think of it I should start my cleansing green juices again. I haven't in months. Ever since I started eating fresh red sour currants for my bladder, I didn't have the same cravings but lately I have wanted one and just been a bit lazy. I always put a lemon in there and I think my liver and gb really like the cleansing chlorophyll of fresh greens, and lemon.

So thanks for inspiring me.

 

[klutzo]

Dlpa

Fred,
I have seen DLPA work absolute miracles with depression and sometimes with pain in Fibromyalgia patients when I had my support group going, completely changing someone's personality from morose and isolating to an outgoing participant.

It has to be pulsed, 8 weeks on and then 8 weeks off, in order to avoid deficiencies of other amino acids, but the effects hold through the 8 week off period.

I cannot take it, since it is contraindicated for high blood pressure.

klutzo

 

[klutzo]

Greens

Jenbooks,
When I had more cash, I took a daily powder called Greens First. I really, really liked it's effects and it's taste, and it did not have any plants in it that I was allergic to. Every other green drink powder I looked at had at least one allergen. You can get it online if interested.

What section do you think the GB/liver thread should be in?

klutzo

 

[jenbooks]

Hi klutzo that's a good ?. Maybe if you PM Cort he will move our posts and start a thread for us where he deems appropriate. He has done this before.

 

[klutzo]

Moving posts

Jenbooks,
OK, I will PM him. He certainly has his hands full with this bunch, doesn't he?

klutzo