B-12 - The Hidden Story

keenly · Oct 21, 2009

methylB12 is superior to cyna; i am learning the hard way.

Major detoxing going on; i feel sick and have headaches.

That being said it lets me know there will be benefits.
Fred you were right and injectable price; just got bill;DAMN!!!!!!!

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

keenly said:

Hi Keenly,

I am confused by your post. The thing I got is that mb12 injectable can be expensive and you don't feel well, but really am not clear on what you are saying. Can you be more verbose please?

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

klutzo said:

Hi Klutzo,

Gall bladder stuff comes up so often connected with b12 deficiency it's beginning to look like one of the usual items.
http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?t=9948&page=263

This is a b12 deficiency thread and gall baldder issues have come up often enough and people asking questions that I think it would help if you posted there too and tell your story. Once a person gets an IAIYH diagnosis, the doctor becomes useless for actually finding medical problems.

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

klutzo said:

Hi Klutzo,

I guess I was lucky afterwards. I did slowly heal. The IBS healed with the b12. Eating meat, even a little restored normal digestion. I haven't had any further problems since then. The one very bad episode of something when I had the half a dozen NDEs in one night was the only time I had black stool. I was unable to eat for about a week. That was about a year before I had my gall bladder out after a classic attack and ER trip.

dmholmes · Oct 21, 2009

SAM-e

Added SAM-e yesterday, 100mg. Effects so far, nausea, increased appetite, drowsiness. I'm guessing I don't need this co-factor?

David

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

dmholmes said:

Hi David,

Effects so far, nausea, increased appetite, drowsiness. I'm guessing I don't need this co-factor?

I wouldn't bet on that. If it did nothing at all at 1/3 the typical dose I would suggest 400mg, a typical dose to see the effects. It's supposed to be effective for detoxing the liver and it augments the effectiveness of mb12 and methylfolate. When one of these things does something noticable it is usually worth noticing. Clearly it is doing something. So continue until no effect then step it up a notch. The drowsiness and increased appetite are usually good signs. Nausea can often be a neurological change or some liver detox etc. You are on a minimal dose.

beckster · Oct 21, 2009

IAIYH?? Freddd?

Hi Freddd,

what is IAIYH?? Beckster

winston · Oct 21, 2009

B12

Hi Fredd, Help! Help! I have been off all the B12's since Saturday and I am going down fast, especially mood and the anxiety is so bad that my legs are vibrating. The detox scared me because it was so bad I couldn't have done it another day, I still have some nausea today, it never completely went away. Which one of the B12's do think caused the most detox? I am thinking it was the adb12 when I upped it to 3 pills I became really sick. I want to try again because I was so much better three weeks ago compared to today. Fredd, I can't stay where I am at, I am not sure what I am asking maybe some convincing to start again but slower. Each week on the B12's I felt improvement, anxiety lessened, mood improved, fatigue improved, even sleep improved off and on. Do you have to go through the bad detox to get to the other side?

Lena

winston · Oct 21, 2009

B12

Fredd, just wanted to add it feels like I am going through drug withdrawals, shakes and anxiety maybe from not getting any B12.

Lena

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

beckster said:

Hi Beckster,

It's All In Your Head. An unfortunately too common diagnosis for people like us which then makes the doctor useless.

Freddd · Oct 21, 2009

winston said:

Hi Lena,

It's almost has to be lack of mb12. The adb12 doesn't decrease that quickly. Return of symptoms starting in 3 days is common with mb12. However, it also sounded like you got some conversion of adb12 to mb12 so again, it's the mb12 leaving. I would say start up the mb12, maybe by quarters. You should feel them starting to work pretty quickly and just keep going as long as it helps. On the adb12 1 per day or each few days is usually quite adequate. The balance between them can make a difference. As these are all operational things they can leave very quickly.

Do you have to go through the bad detox to get to the other side?

I'm not sure. Some of the effect you were having may be an artifact of which you started first and the ratio between them. I was well established on the mb12 before starting. The mb12 is protective of the neurology in a way that adb12 is not. It is unique in this and more of the other kinds don't produce that effect. I had to go though all sorts of effects as different processes came back to functioning at an uneven rate.

By 3 weeks a lot of sympotms were very much improved. The only thing that worsened after 3 weeks was neurology. Moods and such, irritability, personality changes and such got really ragged for a couple of months abbout 1 month into it. That happened 3 more times each time I added an important cofactor that casued more neuological healing. Nerves coming back to function produce all sorts of painful and irritating effects before they start working properly.

Cort · Oct 21, 2009

A Gallbladder/pancreas thread is up on the General treatment section

imgeha · Oct 22, 2009

Detox

winston said:

Hi Lena

You and me both. I am also in detox since starting the methyl B12, to the extent of having a full-on herx on Tuesday - headache, strong metal taste, nausea, brain fog, all of which diminished with successive bowel movements. I felt great after that, and then the next phase of detox started...

I think you DO have to go through detox to get better. I have found that I can control the rate of detox with the methyl B12. I am fine on 2mg, in slow detox on 3mg, in full blow herx on 4mg. I am assuming that the detox is one of the first things to take place on the active B12 protocol, as our methylation functions have been blocked for many years, and the body is finally getting the chance to clear out heavy metals and viruses.

I have also found that I can't stop the methyl B12 now. I had decided to back off for a day after the herx, but around the time I normally take it (and didn't) I got palpitations, which then stopped when I did then take the 1 mg tablet. Does the body get used to it like that?

Anyway, I am going to stick with it. I am convinced my body needs the B12, and although detoxing is horrid, it needs to be done in order to get well. The key is to control the rate of detox, which is something I am working on...

Best

Nicola

keenly · Oct 22, 2009

hi everyone.
does betaine hcl have a negative effect on methylation?
starte da new digestive enzyme today from pro health and got an headache within minutes

i heard rich van allude to this.

Freddd · Oct 22, 2009

imgeha said:

Hi Nicola,

Very interesting, especially how it is dose related.

I am assuming that the detox is one of the first things to take place on the active B12 protocol, as our methylation functions have been blocked for many years, and the body is finally getting the chance to clear out heavy metals and viruses.

Dr Myhill would agree.
http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=407

However, there is a particular bio-chemical glitch here. In order for the methylation cycle to work these B vitamins have to be in their activated form, namely methylcobalamin, folinic acid and pyridoxyl-5-phosphate. In order to get cobalamin into methylcobalamin, the methylation cycle has to be working. So if this cycle has crashed completely, the body can't make methyl cobalamin in order to get it up and running again. Since this cycle is so fundamental to other biochemical cycles, including trans-sulphuration and folate metabolism, it can't change the vitamin B6, folic acid and cobalamin into the active forms necessary for the methylation cycles to work.

This means that in order to get this cycle up and running initially we have to prime the pump with the activated vitamins, but hopefully once the methylation cycle is up and running, it can function on the vitamins in their normal states.

Yes, hopefully the body normalizes after a while. I have so far found that I have to take the active forms for best effect.

I would take the hypothesis one step further, that perhaps these illnesses select for people who require the active forms in the first place.

I would like to add one experience to consideration. I had a huge reaction to l-carnitine and started loosing water. The first few days after that started up I had a weird taste in my mouth, maybe metallic, and my urine stank like slime-rotting vegetation. From what is being said I'm thinking that might have been the result of some sort of detox experience.

I have also found that I can't stop the methyl B12 now. I had decided to back off for a day after the herx, but around the time I normally take it (and didn't) I got palpitations, which then stopped when I did then take the 1 mg tablet. Does the body get used to it like that?

After 6 years on mb12 I'm never more than 3 days from the restart of certain deficiency symptoms. I've seen a hypothesis that this is caused by the liver not being able to re-establish a functional entero-hepatic recirculation loop for cobalamin. That would make sense as then without that, serum cobalamin has about a 4-12 hour serum halflife and mb12 is the main circulating form according to research I have read. That also would explain why adb12 lasts much longer because it is all parked in the mitochondria and only leaks out slowly, not subject to extraction by the liver and excretion in the bile or extraction by the kidneys and out in the urine.

Does the body get used to it like that?

That is hard to say. Maybe it is a recirculation problem. Maybe it's a transport problem. Methylfolate can help increase the retention of the mb12. Maybe some bodies just need some unbound free mb12. When I became a vegetarian I could feel the change the very first day of not getting the usual 6 mcg or so. Maybe what happens is because it goes from sufficiency to insufficiency so rapidly it doesn't give the body time to get it's triage set up for selecting what gets b12. If it's that perhaps after healing a slow taper of 1% per day like a benzo would work. It's just possible that in experiencing a sufficiency of mb12 for all functions at the same time for the first time the difference is more noticable. For me at least I had palpitations for decades and only finally got rid of them when I went to B-right twice a day, a couple of years after starting both mb12 and adb12 but not methylfolate, so maybe it was the folic acid. In 2 days of once a day they come back. So there are other cofactors at work too.

The key is to control the rate of detox, which is something I am working on...

I would agree. Controling the rate could be the key. Since excreting the toxins is important to healing it is needed. Good luck.

winston · Oct 22, 2009

B12

Hi Nicola, thanks for commenting on what you are going through. Last night my legs were burning and trembling not a detox reaction but a withdrawal type symptom. I put about a 1/8 of a methylb12 (I use the 5 mg) under my lip and within one hour the pain subsided and the trembling stopped. I also regained an appetite which I haven't had in days. I don't think it was a placebo because this morning I used 1/4 methylb12 and within one hour I am feeling better. I am going to take this very slow and not up my dosage too fast. I just started a weekly massage which I believe helps to detox the system in a mild way.

Are you on all four of the B12's? I did not have any detox symptoms until I was on 2 - B-Right, 3 - adb12, 3 - methyb12, 1 Folate. It took me 10 days of detoxing and one day of full-on herx before I realized what was happening.

Can't wait to start all over again. ha ha

Lena

leelaplay · Oct 22, 2009

hi fredd
I'm so impressed with all the work you've done and knowledge base you've developed. I wonder if there's some way of offering it to the larger - and not only for us MEers. Are you writing a book? Think it would be fabuous to work in conjunction with researchers / doctors and get this info out there.

Thanks for all you've done so far and continuing to share the info.

islandfinn

dmholmes · Oct 22, 2009

Freddd said:

Fred, what kind of palpitations? I have an arrhythmia I'd love to resolve. Holter test revealed about a dozen extra beats over a 24 hour period. It's most troublesome when laying down/sleeping.

Freddd · Oct 22, 2009

dmholmes said:

Hi David,

what kind of palpitations?

I don't know. I'll ask my doc next week when I go in. They happened multiple times per minute around the clock. They were some sort of arrhythmia. We never did any expensive testing as no money and we knew they existed. So they got pretty much ignored for decades. I had a series of EKGs for a phase III trial I was in and the docs didn't seemed concerned and the drug made no differences.

dmholmes · Oct 22, 2009

Freddd said:

I'll try a second B-Right one of these days and see what that does. I've been thinking it is a potassium/salt/electrolyte imbalance.

B-12 - The Hidden Story

keenly

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