B-12 - The Hidden Story

[lebowski]

and against hiv

and this one against hiv , ( i m assuming both r retroviruses and there can be a smilarity of their vulnurabilities )


Titre du document / Document title
Inhibition of productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 infection by cobalamins
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
WEINBERG J. B. ; SAULS D. L. ; MISUKONIS M. A. ; SHUGARS D. C. ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
VA and Duke univ. medical cent., dep. medicine, obstetrics gynecology, and surgery, Durham NC 27705, ETATS-UNIS

Résumé / Abstract
Various cobalamins act as important enzyme cofactors and modulate cellular function. We investigated cobalamins for their abilities to modify productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 (HIV-1) infection of hematopoietic cells in vitro. We show that hydroxocobalamin (OH-Cbl), methylcobalamin (Me-Cbl). and adenosylcobalamin Ado-Cbl (Ado-Cbl) inhibit HIV-1 infection of normal human blood monocytes and lymphocytes. The inhibitory effects were noted when analyzing the monocytotropic strains HIV-1-BaL and HIV-1-ADA as well as the lymphocytotropic strain HIV-1-LAI. Cobalamins did not modify binding of gp120 to CD4 or block early steps in viral life cycle, inhibit reverse transcriptase, inhibit induction of HIV-1 expression from cells with established or latent infection, or modify monocyte interferon-α production. Because of the ability to achieve high blood and tissue levels of cobalamins in vivo and the general lack of toxicity, cobalamins should be considered as potentially useful agents for the treatment of HIV-1 infection. This is a US government work. There are no restrictions on its use.

 

[imgeha]

heavy metal detox

PROOF THAT adB12 DID INDEED CAUSE HEAVY METAL DETOX.

ON 10/02/09 I did a fecal metals test through Doctor's Data. That was the day that I had the adverse reaction to the B12, which both I and my acupuncturist suspected was causing heavy metal detox symptoms. Fortunately I had one of the kits at home to do the test!

THE RESULTS of the test indicate the presence of several toxic levels, most notably:
ARSENIC, BERYLLIUM, CADMIUM, COPPER, LEAD, NICKEL and very high levels of THALLIUM.

I knew from my symptoms alone that the heavy metals were getting released. Now I have the results to prove it. My prior tests did not show these high levels.

OK - here is my take on this. I became sick five years ago after an unprotected amalgam removal on a trip to the dentist. I developed jaundice, hypothyroidism, severe gut issues and was very sick indeed. Completed amalgam removal 3 years ago. I stumbled across the Cutler protocol (low frequent dosing with DMSA to lower the body burden of mercury, low frequent dosing with ALA to remove mercury from the brain) before amalgam removal, and decided that this is what I would do. I have completed 100 DMSA rounds, of which 30 have been with ALA. I am better, but still have a long way to go.

I have also dabbled with the Rich's simplified protocol, because the blocked methylation theory makes complete sense to me. My response to the methylation supps was conclusive. Each time I took them for a week, sometimes less, my body would go into the mother of all detoxes and I would feel completely dreadful. My symptoms told me that mercury was mobilized, which was good, but I felt so awful it was unsustainable. I started on a DMSA round, and voila, the symptoms got better so I chelated until they cleared.

My view is this. If you have a very heavy body burden of mercury from decades of amalgams, getting methylation going is not a good idea. Prompting the body to dump mercury and other metals into a body with compromised excretion pathways is a recipe for making adrenals and yeast worse. My belief is if you are very toxic, you should chelate first to bring body burden down before getting methylation going.

I don't believe that chelation alone will cure me. I buy into Freddd's theory that most of us have a B12 deficiency (as most of us have or had amalgams at some stage, plus all the other reasons for a deficiency), and that many mercury symptoms are in fact B12 deficiency symptoms. This, and Fredd's list of symptoms convinced me:

http://www.ever.ch/medizinwissen/b12hg.php

So while I am using chelation to bring down the body burden, I believe I need the active B12s to heal properly. Even if I were to take the right form of B12 during standard supplementation during chelation, I don't believe I would take in enough to heal properly. This is why Fredd's protocol makes sense to me, and why I am doing it, cautiously, but only after 100 rounds of DMSA. I am fine on the active B12s but as soon as I add in the methylfolate my symptoms still become intense. Afer 100 rounds of DMSA...

I don't believe it's a question of following just one protocol to the exclusion of all others. Getting well requires a flexible approach, and a deep knowledge of your body, symptoms and how it all works.

This is what I am trying anyway. So far so good.

Best

Nicola

 

[aquariusgirl]

Nicola

Very interesting post.

I have been doing methylation support for going on 3 years now, and I have wondered about the issue you raise. What's easier on the body? Chelation followed by methylation support or vice versa.

So hard to know. We all have to be our own guinea pigs.

Chelation can be tricky and it seems lots of ppl have been burned ...but detoxing metals thru methylation is no picnic either, and I do believe I have suffered severe brain inflammation by overdoing it on occasion.

I am actually surprised that Dreambirdie had any reaction to the adb12 if what we're talking about is the Dibencozide. I used to take handfuls of that stuff and never noticed anything.

Plus, a very well respected DAN! doc, Anji Usman, said some time ago that she was taking her autistic patients off it because she couldn't see that it was doing anything.

Plus, and I'm less confident about this, but Prof Rich Deth said that adenosylcobalamin is not very stable, so I would assume that it would make it hard to manufacture ....or least hard to manufacture anything worth taking..

So I'm a little puzzled about her reaction.

Also on the metals test: I think it's expected that ppl are dumping metals. Anything in the green range is within normal parameters for healthy people, so you'd really have to see the test results to understand them. Even then, I don't think there's any hard or fast interpretation.. or at least that's my sense from looking at these things for a while.

To be clear, I do think methylation support can mobilise metals and trigger brain inflammation. I'm just puzzled that adb12 could do it on its own.

Dreambirdie, were u taking the adb12 with bioactive folates like folapro or actifolate or anything?

I'm sorry for your bad reaction. That stuff is unpleasant.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Nicola

I would be interested in hearing more about your experiences on Cutler's program.

Is there a chelation thread where you could post ?

 

[markmc2000]

good post

Good one. I seem to benefit from b12 and just trying to get around this methyl mercury concern. I meet with my doctor soon. I read one post somehwere where the guy proposed some people are getting hit from random antibiotics instead of having mercury moved around and that could explain the bad side effects from b12. I have no idea though.

and this one against hiv , ( i m assuming both r retroviruses and there can be a smilarity of their vulnurabilities )


Titre du document / Document title
Inhibition of productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 infection by cobalamins
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
WEINBERG J. B. ; SAULS D. L. ; MISUKONIS M. A. ; SHUGARS D. C. ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
VA and Duke univ. medical cent., dep. medicine, obstetrics gynecology, and surgery, Durham NC 27705, ETATS-UNIS

Résumé / Abstract
Various cobalamins act as important enzyme cofactors and modulate cellular function. We investigated cobalamins for their abilities to modify productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 (HIV-1) infection of hematopoietic cells in vitro. We show that hydroxocobalamin (OH-Cbl), methylcobalamin (Me-Cbl). and adenosylcobalamin Ado-Cbl (Ado-Cbl) inhibit HIV-1 infection of normal human blood monocytes and lymphocytes. The inhibitory effects were noted when analyzing the monocytotropic strains HIV-1-BaL and HIV-1-ADA as well as the lymphocytotropic strain HIV-1-LAI. Cobalamins did not modify binding of gp120 to CD4 or block early steps in viral life cycle, inhibit reverse transcriptase, inhibit induction of HIV-1 expression from cells with established or latent infection, or modify monocyte interferon-α production. Because of the ability to achieve high blood and tissue levels of cobalamins in vivo and the general lack of toxicity, cobalamins should be considered as potentially useful agents for the treatment of HIV-1 infection. This is a US government work. There are no restrictions on its use.

 

[froufox]

Hi everyone,

Yes very interesting discussion about methylation and chelation. It is very interesting that you have been dumping metals from the AdB12 Dreambirdie, thanx for sharing that. Hasn't Freddd already said that Adb12 can be converted into methylcobalamin to a very small degree? Sorry if I have got that wrong. Also doesnt Rich V K say the b12s can convert to eachother? I cant remember who said what now

Hi Nicola, thanks for sharing your experience and I'm glad to hear you are improving with your approach, I recognise you from the chelation forums. I agree we need to be flexible. I have found both chelation and methylation to both be pretty rough going. I've been doing Cutler on and off since 2005 and found it very hard going as you point out can be very hard on the adrenals etc. particularly if you have chronic infections too and the endocrine system is already heavily burdeoned with that. Anyway I stoppped when I found out I had lyme etc and decided to concentrate on that for a while.

I just wanted to say that I have had a very similar experience to you with regard to the methylation. Recently I have been experimenting again with methylcobalamin and the active folates and finding it pretty rough and decided to take DMSA to see if it would help and like you found that it really helps to reduce my detox symptoms and interestingly significantly increases my energy too. Just curious what doses were you taking of the methylation supps?

So anyway in my case it too seems as though the DMSA is mopping up the mercury etc that has been stirred up by the methyl supps. I seem to be able to tolerate a higher dose of DMSA when I do this, previously when Ive done chelation rounds I was only able to take 12-15mg but when I add it to the methylation treatment I can tolerate 20mg.

I've also been taking Adb12 and at first I found it helped with brain clarity and energy, but then the brain benefits seemed to stop and my brain has been worse so who knows maybe the same thing is happening with me too and it is detoxing metals. I havent had any tests to find out for sure. Ive also run out of adb12 for 4 days now and my order is delayed and I have also noticed that my brain is less inflamed so that is interesting too.

Also just to add that interstingly I had a consultation with a doctor last yr who used to work at the Paracelsus Clinic in Switzerland, the philosophy of which is very much based on Bechamp and Enderlein and pleomorphism theory and correcting the terrain first ... anyway he told me to stop taking the methylation supps because in his opinion methylation issues should be dealt with at the END of treatment because it is too detoxifying....he compared it to closing the door after the horse has bolted.

The order he recommended to do things which is how they do things at the clinic was.. first alkalise to get the ph raised which also helps getting inflammation levels down, then do the anti-microbial treatment and sort the gut out, and do chelation and whatever else needs to be done etc and then add in methylation at the end.

He said that in his experience things go much more smoothly for people if they do things in this order. I dont know if he's right or not and obviously we are all different and have different issues but what he says sort of fits in with some peoples experiences of having to go extremely slow with the methylation supplements. As you say aquariusgirl we are all guinea pigs which makes it so hard!

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I am having problems. Thought it was the potassium but I am still nauseated and this past week not feeling well at all, almost like detoxing I have been through that before. When I upped my adb12 to three a day one week ago I started feeling worse was doing just great the first 5 or 6 weeks of B12s, what do you think is going on? Today I will go back down to 2 adb12 and see if that helps, unfortunately we are to leave today to see our daughter in San Diego and my husband is a little disgusted with me because I told him I did not feel well. I guess I will have to suck it up or stay home.

Lena

 

[Dreambirdie]

Do you have quantitative reports? Or parts per billion or whatever or?

And now just purely curiosity. Where in heck does thallium come from? Do you know where the arsenic may come from? Well water? Any answers you may have would be helpful.

"Reports are reported as mg/kg dry weight of feces to eliminate the influence of variability in water content of fecal specimens. The reference values that appear in this report have been derived from both published data and in house studies at DDI. Due to exposure to mercury in the oral cavity, people with dental amalgams typically have a considerably higher level of mercury in the feces than individuals without dental amalgams; therefore, two reference ranges have been established for mercury.

"To provide guidance in interpretation of results, patient values are plotted graphically with respect to percentile distribution of the population base."

In my case, most of the toxic metal results fell into the upper end of the GREEN zone, (near the 68th percentile). And there were quite a number of them, which makes for more of a detox burden--according to my doctor. In past tests, I DID NOT present this many--only arsenic and uranium. This time, I was clearly having a big metal elimination.

Thallium was the one metal that was CLEARLY in the very high range, just about at the 95th percentile. From what I've read, THALLIUM is used in the electronics industry, in rat poison and insecticide, and in the production of infrared lamps. My only idea on exposure to it is that 2 years ago I consulted a Chinese acupuncturist who used herbs from China. I had toxic reactions to several (but not all) of his formulas, and quit taking them because of that. Since China is where we send so much of our E-waste, I'm thinking that maybe I was exposed to thallium via the herbs... I usually use The Sun Ten/Brion herbs which are toxin-free, and have never had a problem with them.

Dreambirdie, were u taking the adb12 with bioactive folates like folapro or actifolate or anything? I'm sorry for your bad reaction. That stuff is unpleasant.

Thanks Aquariusgirl-- Yes, detoxing is hellish! I really hate it.

In answer to your question, no I wasn't taking any bioactive folates at the time. The ONLY methylB12 I was getting was in the B Right. But I didn't think that would make much of a difference.... as it wasn't sublingually absorbed.

The detox reaction happened AFTER I raised my adB12 dose to 2 TABLETS/DAY.

My belief is if you are very toxic, you should chelate first to bring body burden down before getting methylation going.

I don't believe it's a question of following just one protocol to the exclusion of all others. Getting well requires a flexible approach, and a deep knowledge of your body, symptoms and how it all works.

Hi Nicola--

I can't possibly take DMSA. It is much too strong for me, and both my doctor and acupuncturist have advised me against it. I have tried other milder natural chelators, like zeolite, PCA RX, and a formula that was made from chlorella, but those all were very potent as well.

My question is how do you NEUTRALIZE and EFFECTIVELY ELIMINATE the toxic metals once they do come out? N-A-C has been the best bet for me, along with HIGH doses of chlorophyll and Vit. C. Is there anything else that helps this process?

I think the "flexible approach" you speak of is the way to go. I know that I need the B12 and folates, so I am going to try Rich's protocol--with teeny doses to begin with. I'll just have to experiment to find out what works best and is easiest on my body.

 

[aquariusgirl]

antidotes

Just a thought. I think its important to have things on hand when detoxing becomes too unpleasant.

I wouldn't be without activated charcoal (a binder essentially) and I find yasko's RNAs .. Nerve calm, health foundation and stress RNA help for the bad brain inflammation.

but of course the point is not to go there...but sometimes bad things happen.

Interesting that others have found NAC and DMSA to help.

I do think I did a number on my adrenals by hitting methylation support too hard at the beginning. I took higher than the recommended doses so I have no one but myself to blame.

IDIOT!!

 

[Advocate]

Benign retroviruses

Nancy Klimas wrote in today's NYT, "And you are right, some retroviruses are seemingly benign, whereas others are pathogens."

Does anyone know the names of these benign retroviruses?

 

[Freddd]

Hi everyone,

Yes very interesting discussion about methylation and chelation. It is very interesting that you have been dumping metals from the AdB12 Dreambirdie, thanx for sharing that. Hasn't Freddd already said that Adb12 can be converted into methylcobalamin to a very small degree? Sorry if I have got that wrong. Also doesnt Rich V K say the b12s can convert to eachother? I cant remember who said what now

Hi Nicola, thanks for sharing your experience and I'm glad to hear you are improving with your approach, I recognise you from the chelation forums. I agree we need to be flexible. I have found both chelation and methylation to both be pretty rough going. I've been doing Cutler on and off since 2005 and found it very hard going as you point out can be very hard on the adrenals etc. particularly if you have chronic infections too and the endocrine is already heavily burdeoned with that. Anyway I stoppped with I found out I had lyme etc and decided to concentrate on that for a while.

I just wanted to say that I have had a very similar experience to you with regard to the methylation. Recently I have been experimenting again with methylcobalamin and the active folates and finding it pretty rough and decided to take DMSA to see if it would help and like you found that it really helps to reduce my detox symptoms and interestingly significantly increases my energy too. Just curious what doses were you taking of the methylation supps?

So anyway in my case it too seems as though the DMSA is mopping up the mercury etc that has been stirred up by the methyl supps. I seem to be able to tolerate a higher dose of DMSA when I do this, previously when Ive done chelation rounds I was only able to take 12-15mg but when I add it to the methylation treatment I can tolerate 20mg.

I've also been taking Adb12 and at first I found it helped with brain clarity and energy, but then the brain benefits seemed to stop and my brain has been worse so who knows maybe the same thing is happening with me too and it is detoxing metals. I havent had any tests to find out for sure. Ive also run out of adb12 for 4 days now and my order is delayed and I have also noticed that my brain is less inflamed so that is interesting too.

Also just to add that interstingly I had a consultation with a doctor last yr who used to work at the Paracelsus Clinic in Switzerland, the philosophy of which is very much based on Bechamp and Enderlein and pleomorphism theory and correcting the terrain first ... anyway he told me to stop taking the methylation supps because in his opinion methylation issues should be dealt with at the END of treatment because it is too detoxifying....he compared it to closing the door after the horse has bolted.

The order he recommended to do things which is how they do things at the clinic was.. first alkalise to get the ph raised which also helps getting inflammation levels down, then do the anti-microbial treatment and sort the gut out, and do chelation and whatever else needs to be done etc and then add in methylation at the end.

He said that in his experience things go much more smoothly for people if they do things in this order. I dont know if he's right or not and obviously we are all different and have different issues but what he says sort of fits in with some peoples experiences of having to go extremely slow with the methylation supplements. As you say aquariusgirl we are all guinea pigs which makes it so hard!

Hi Froufox,

Hasn't Freddd already said that Adb12 can be converted into methylcobalamin to a very small degree? Sorry if I have got that wrong. Also doesnt Rich V K say the b12s can convert to eachother? I cant remember who said what now

We have both said things about conversions and interconversions. Rich places more faith in their adequacy than I do. The normal body is considered able to covert a small amount of inactive cobalamins such as cyanob12, glutathionalb12 and hydroxyb12 to the active two ones, mb12 and adb12. Further, the normal body is said to be able to convert adb12 to mb12 and mb12 to adb12. All of these conversions are in small amounts at most 10mcg or 20mcg per day in the normal body. And no cobalamin except methylb12 actually increases metylation capacity. For any of the other cobalamins to become methylb12 requires a methyl group from elsewhere, such as SAM-e or methylfolate so it's just like switching a methygroup from your left pocket to your right pocket. It's a zero sum game. However, taking methylb12 adds methylgroups to the body without depleteing some other methyl donor. In fact takling mb12 generates SAM-e.

In many studies approximately 20-40% get no effect at all from an inactive cobalamin. Most people here will have some degree of differential reaction between the two active b12s. The conversion from adb12 is not sufficient to fully supply mb12 needs and the conversion from mb12 is not sufficient to fully supply adb12 needs. The conversion of hydroxyb12 is not sufficient to fully supply either adb12 needs or mb12 needs.

Within the body there is some kind of optimum balance at which we will feel best, which is very dependent upon our individual biochemistries, between mb12 and adb12. Neither one is adequate all by itself. Various theories have been presented about how much of each needs to be taken or the proportion. One theory says that one needs 9 times as much mb12 as adb12. Others say that 2 to 1 is closer to optimum. For me, taking one larger dose of adb12 once each 5-7 days with my 3 injections daily of mb12. My 3-4 injections totalling 30mg are pragmatically determined at what stops and reverses the neurological deterioration. For my body alone I did fine on a couple of 5mb Mb12 sublinguals a day. I appear to have some adb12/mb12 interconversion but not adequate.

As far as conversions go, there is no reason at all to assume the people here have "normal" bodies. Perhaps these diseases select for folks who have some degree of problem converting or can't do it adequately. There is no research to say that "normal" is also adequate. There are lots of assumptions and fudge factors and evidence that conversion happens on a microscopic level but not that it is actually fully adequate for good health. Maybe the best it can do is keep people limping along rather than collapsing entirely.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I wouldn't be without activated charcoal (a binder essentially) and I find yasko's RNAs .. Nerve calm, health foundation and stress RNA help for the bad brain inflammation.

I do think I did a number on my adrenals by hitting methylation support too hard at the beginning. I took higher than the recommended doses so I have no one but myself to blame. IDIOT!!

Hey Aquariusgirl-- Please get off your own case! We live and learn, and that's just par for the course.

Thanks, BTW, for the input. Where do you go to get the Yasko RNAs?

 

[Freddd]

"Reports are reported as mg/kg dry weight of feces to eliminate the influence of variability in water content of fecal specimens. The reference values that appear in this report have been derived from both published data and in house studies at DDI. Due to exposure to mercury in the oral cavity, people with dental amalgams typically have a considerably higher level of mercury in the feces than individuals without dental amalgams; therefore, two reference ranges have been established for mercury.

"To provide guidance in interpretation of results, patient values are plotted graphically with respect to percentile distribution of the population base."

In my case, most of the toxic metal results fell into the upper end of the GREEN zone, (near the 68th percentile). And there were quite a number of them, which makes for more of a detox burden--according to my doctor. In past tests, I DID NOT present this many--only arsenic and uranium. This time, I was clearly having a big metal elimination.

Thallium was the one metal that was CLEARLY in the very high range, just about at the 95th percentile. From what I've read, THALLIUM is used in the electronics industry, in rat poison and insecticide, and in the production of infrared lamps. My only idea on exposure to it is that 2 years ago I consulted a Chinese acupuncturist who used herbs from China. I had toxic reactions to several (but not all) of his formulas, and quit taking them because of that. Since China is where we send so much of our E-waste, I'm thinking that maybe I was exposed to thallium via the herbs... I usually use The Sun Ten/Brion herbs which are toxin-free, and have never had a problem with them.



Thanks Aquariusgirl-- Yes, detoxing is hellish! I really hate it.

In answer to your question, no I wasn't taking any bioactive folates at the time. The ONLY methylB12 I was getting was in the B Right. But I didn't think that would make much of a difference.... as it wasn't sublingually absorbed.

The detox reaction happened AFTER I raised my adB12 dose to 2 TABLETS/DAY.



Hi Nicola--

I can't possibly take DMSA. It is much too strong for me, and both my doctor and acupuncturist have advised me against it. I have tried other milder natural chelators, like zeolite, PCA RX, and a formula that was made from chlorella, but those all were very potent as well.

My question is how do you NEUTRALIZE and EFFECTIVELY ELIMINATE the toxic metals once they do come out? N-A-C has been the best bet for me, along with HIGH doses of chlorophyll and Vit. C. Is there anything else that helps this process?

I think the "flexible approach" you speak of is the way to go. I know that I need the B12 and folates, so I am going to try Rich's protocol--with teeny doses to begin with. I'll just have to experiment to find out what works best and is easiest on my body.

Hi Dreambirdie,

Are you familiar with Prussian Blue? It's an iron based pigment that is used to detoxify thallium, cesium and a few other heavy metals, to pull it from the body in an ion exchange process as it passes through the intestine. It is used to remove thallium.

Methylb12 removes arsenic from the body by converting it to a substance that can be exhaled and smells like garlic. It can be smelled in parts per billion. I was wondering if you experienced that or if we are talking a different mechanism other than methylation. Adb12 doesn't add to the methylation of the body as it has to get a methyl group from somewhere such as SAM-e or methyfolate and is converted in very small amounts only like 10 mcg.

Reports are reported as mg/kg dry weight of feces to eliminate the influence of variability in water content of fecal specimens. The reference values that appear in this report have been derived from both published data and in house studies at DDI. Due to exposure to mercury in the oral cavity, people with dental amalgams typically have a considerably higher level of mercury in the feces than individuals without dental amalgams; therefore, two reference ranges have been established for mercury.

Good, so these are the amounts actually flushed from the body. So one way to interpret this is that taking adb12 caused these metals to be excreted by the liver. This is what mb12 does with mercury and maybe others, makes them available for excretion by the liver. The scanty information I can find on Thallium serum halflife suggests a loss rate of 3-5% per day giving a halflife of 15-22 days. That would indicate that you could have it reduced 99% in 22 weeks or so, at least that which is mobilized. The damage it causes to the nervous system, like mercury is very suggestive of severe b12 deficiency damage. This suggests that all those metals could be mostly cleared from your body in a matter of months after the last of it is mobilized from the tissues.

You know, perhaps that is what happened to me. All sorts of things got a lot better and around month 9. Maybe the metals, including mercury were mobilized and excreted. Rich asked about this very thing and I have been considering it all along. At one point he said that he had considered the possiblity of using the mb12 for just that purpose with at least mercury but was unsure of how it would play out. That it causes it to be excreted by the liver in the first year rather than years down the road may be a difference for me and others in getting healthy. Maybe it explains the 9-12 months.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, I am having problems. Thought it was the potassium but I am still nauseated and this past week not feeling well at all, almost like detoxing I have been through that before. When I upped my adb12 to three a day one week ago I started feeling worse was doing just great the first 5 or 6 weeks of B12s, what do you think is going on? Today I will go back down to 2 adb12 and see if that helps, unfortunately we are to leave today to see our daughter in San Diego and my husband is a little disgusted with me because I told him I did not feel well. I guess I will have to suck it up or stay home.

Lena

Hi Lena,

I would think that 1 3mg adb12 is entirely adequate while you start bringing mb12 on board. The balance between the two is important. With the mb12 and other factors it's effects will change. Balance is very important in all this.

 

[Freddd]

Good one. I seem to benefit from b12 and just trying to get around this methyl mercury concern. I meet with my doctor soon. I read one post somehwere where the guy proposed some people are getting hit from random antibiotics instead of having mercury moved around and that could explain the bad side effects from b12. I have no idea though.

Hi Mark,

I did a model of the effects of methylb12 on methylating mercury combined with a model of how fast the methylmercury is elliminated by the liver. It's on the methylation thread. You might find it interesting to at least look at that. One of the things that came up in the course of making the model is that 1mg of mercury sitting in the body is sufficient to disable 100% of the methlb12 we have in our bodies normally several times over by taking it's methyl group or to disable all the mb12 in our body and all that expected for the next several years at normal rates. No wonder 80% of the effects of mercury are b12 deficiency symptoms.

 

[froufox]

Hi Dreambirdie,

Like aquariusgirl I've found charcoal to be of help either on its own or in a formula I take called Dr Schulze intestinal formula 2 which contains other ingredients & binders like bentonite clay, apple pectin, slippery elm and a few other things.

Take care

 

[froufox]

Hi Freddd,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! Perhaps as Ive been taking the methyfolate more adb12 was converted into methylb12. Plus I have been taking the B right too so perhaps overall I've been taking too much mb12. Like others here I have to go really slow with the detox.

Cheers

 

[Advocate]

Nancy Klimas wrote in today's NYT, "And you are right, some retroviruses are seemingly benign, whereas others are pathogens."

Ah, I've got it now. Endogenous retroviruses.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! Perhaps as Ive been taking the methyfolate more adb12 was converted into methylb12. Plus I have been taking the B right too so perhaps overall I've been taking too much mb12. Like others here I have to go really slow with the detox.

Cheers

Hi Froufox,

The amount of mb12 absorbed from the B-Right is in the range of 2.5mcg if you absorb poorly to 10mcg or so if you absorb well with all systems working. Throw in another 10mcg from conversion and that still is quite low. So I don't know. At least it means you are not totally without.

The pragmatic evidence I have seen is that 800mcg of methylfolate produces a much larger methylation reaction than 20mcg of methylb12 and that it takes some mgs of mb12 to equal the methylation capacity of 800 mcg of methylfolate. What the large pool of methylfolate appears to do is allows the cobalamin to recharge itself back to methylcobalamin over and over rather than simply be depleted and excreted. This is all hypothetical based on the methylation diagrams that assume a cobalamin other than mb12 which then is methylated by the folate before becoming a methyl donor itself.

 

[beckster]

Hi again Freddd

I am still going along. Added in the methylfolin. How much of that a day do i work up to????

Also i will soon add in the lcarn-fumarate--start with what amount and work up to what amount?????

I am having improvements with not much problem, except that the sleep is played with, so i still take most everything in the early am. Will detail things later.

Thanks again. Beckster