B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sunday]

David, I just read my last sentence and want to add this, since it sounds as if I am dooming you: I don't mean that at all, just that stopping fluoroquinones doesn't stop the symptoms you've got; we're all here using other means for those. Words are tricky kittle-kattle.

 

[Freddd]

I was looking up some symptoms, ran across this thread on a vegan forum. Whole other world over there...

Hi David,

I'm an ex vegetarian of sorts as I did eat eggs, milk products and occasional fish. That's probably why I survived. Their fantasies about b12 and so on were very detrimental. I could feel the differences of no meat the very first day. The explanation I was given over and over was "toxins" leaving my system. Yup, toxins like l-carnitine and b12. Now I know it was vitality and health leaking out of my system.

Of course vegetarians feel mb12 and adb12 strongly, they are very deficient. Then they misinterpret the startup symptoms and become frightened of them. I think some of them find the whole idea of having to consume something produced by life (bacteria via meat) as a problem. B12 deficiency produces a most unusual anorexia, a b12 specific anorexia. Does voluntary vegatarianism come from such a nutrient specific anorexia? It's just a speculation based on the descriptions of revulsion I have heard. I had a delightful perfectly cooked Chateaubriand last night and have no inclination to avoid such.

 

[Sunday]

I also followed that thread; it sure is another world. I think it is possible to be vegetarian and healthy, but you really have to work at it. Most people don't. I've seen a heck of a lot of wan and pale vegetarians, vegans, and raw foodists in my area (used to work in the local store so I had plenty of opportunity).

 

[Freddd]

YES!

I completely agree with you, Jen. This is the big problem with Freddd's protocol. The place where it lost all legitimacy for me.

To reduce ALL reactions to the B12 and folates as "nothing but deficiency" is definitely dangerous.

Hi Dreambirdie,

People without deficiency symptoms don't have reactions to mb12 or adb12. That is easily demonstrated. So, when Metanx is tested for side effects with a panel of healthy persons in the safety testing, and methylb12 tested in huge doses in people awaiting kidney transplants but who don't have any signs of b12 deficiencies, they find nothing. They do make the usual cautions about allergies to any components including binders, fillers and coloring in tablets, which is a known problem, and a few minor side effect issues including nausea, at low levels of incidence.

Now the list of symptoms I use is an internaltional one so it includes the symptoms that people from many different countries using all the various forms and those symptoms that actually respond to the active b12s additionally. There are many studies showing why the serum and urine tests of various sorts are not adequate for detecting even quite severe deficiencies. And then there is the distinction between funtional deficiencies and damage resulting from prolonged deficiencies.

Suppose you come up with some peer reviewed research showing all these hypothecized effects that the active b12s have that are outside their functionality. I can't think of any. I have never seen any even hypothecized in research for the active b12s, however they do exist for cyanob12 and hydroxyb12, so don't confuse the two. I don't know that I can even name an effect of active b12s that isn't part of and tied to it's functionality. Yes, it is a methylator and does do detoxificxation of a number of types. Yes it does mobilize mercury converted to methylmercury in small amounts allowing it to be excreted in the bile. It is the best neurological detoxifier known. It's lack can cause hundreds of symptoms including neuropsychiatric including "the most florrid psychosis known to man". On startup it can affect hundreds of things that it's lack caused, all at once instead of slowly over time. That is part of it's functionality. You may not like it's rapid onset and hard hitting aspects since it is immediately active in a sizable volume. Only cyanob12 has toxic effects as it releases cyanide into the tissues which can cause blindness and other ill effects in some folks. Hydroxyb12 can cause malfuntions in cellular reproduction leading to acne and who knows what else in hidden tissues.

I can think of an effect active b12s does have due to it's functionality; it can cause rapid onset of other deficiencies such as potassium and folate and probably others due to rapid onset of healing. It does detox botulism toxin which is generally considered a good thing unless one has just paid $500 for Botox. It does prevent neurotoxicity from tetanus but in doing so delays diagnosis. It can cause a rise in BP in conjunction with CoQ10. And there are probably a lot of additional specifics, all related to it's funtionality. Generally they are all temporary and there are none known that continue indefinitely. Some additional ones may be dangerous which is why I am working up a new list of much stronger cautions. If there are specific effects you would like to see mentioned as potentially dangerous please post those quite specifically and I will include them. I can't even begin to name all the effects of healing all the tissues in the body plus influence neurotransmitters and hormones and neurology and starting up mitochondria in all the various tissues. I could imagine those alone going to hundreds of potential symptoms that might be affected. Documenting all this could certainly be a PhD level or post doc project. It's never been done. Any contributions of their effects from active b12s or active b12s with methylfolate or any other nutrrients anybody wishes to make are gladly invited, if made in a post that includes primarily those things so I don't have to spend a lot of time figuring out what you are actually saying.

 

[lebowski]

attension seeking behaviour

is attension seeking behaviour or att. creating behaviour a part of chronic fatigue syndrome ?
and what can it be done against it if this kind of beh. causing a researcher who tries to inform people ( and needs time and energy) , to explain the same part of his teory for 157 times ?

(if this is irrevelant here pls move it to anywhere it belongs )

 

[Dreambirdie]

Some additional ones may be dangerous which is why I am working up a new list of much stronger cautions. If there are specific effects you would like to see mentioned as potentially dangerous please post those quite specifically and I will include them.

Freddd--

In my case, and in others that Rich has mentioned, B12 has caused heavy metal detox symptoms. These definitely need to be added to your list. They can be very severe for sensitive people, as they were for me.

 

[Sunday]

I am an ex-sort-of-vegetarian myself; like Freddd, I ate dairy and eggs, and occasional fish and meat; I also took supplements that I thought were supplying me with all the B vitamins I needed (brewer's yeast and blue-green algae were two). Now I know more about B12, it's belatedly occuring to me that those supplements were likely not at all sufficient, although for many years I had almost unstoppable health.

 

[jenbooks]

A number of people are reporting adverse symptoms: dizziness, arhythmias, shortness of breath, palpitations, high blood pressure etc. Lisa spoke of a serious setback for her and Jeremy on the active b'12's----while an injection of hydroxy from her doctor made her feel well for the first time in 9 years.

Theory is just that. It can go on endlessly. You can corrupt the data to fit any theory if you please.

The reality is that if you are having adverse symptoms like the above, probably you should stop. Belief does not precede reality. Don't harm yourself. That's my opinion and I think I will stop reading this thread henceforth. Good luck to all on the active b'12's.

 

[Freddd]

is attension seeking behaviour or att. creating behaviour a part of chronic fatigue syndrome ?
and what can it be done against it if this kind of beh. causing a researcher who tries to inform people ( and needs time and energy) , to explain the same part of his teory for 157 times ?

(if this is irrevelant here pls move it to anywhere it belongs )

Hi lebowski,


is attension seeking behaviour or att. creating behaviour a part of chronic fatigue syndrome ?

I wouldn't think that it is. However, as doctors tend to ignore CFS/FMS and treat it's suffers badly many have learned to do whatever it takes to get medical attention. It's like what people in pain have to do to get adequately treated for pain. If you have a "7" pain and need to be treated for it, if you report a "7" you get treated for "4 "or "5" so one has to report a "9" to have a shot to be treated for a "7". It's games doctors play and to get treatment, the patients have to play along.

 

[Freddd]

A number of people are reporting adverse symptoms: dizziness, arhythmias, shortness of breath, palpitations, high blood pressure etc. Lisa spoke of a serious setback for her and Jeremy on the active b'12's----while an injection of hydroxy from her doctor made her feel well for the first time in 9 years.

Theory is just that. It can go on endlessly. You can corrupt the data to fit any theory if you please.

The reality is that if you are having adverse symptoms like the above, probably you should stop. Belief does not precede reality. Don't harm yourself. That's my opinion and I think I will stop reading this thread henceforth. Good luck to all on the active b'12's.

Hi Jenbooks,


Theory is just that. It can go on endlessly. You can corrupt the data to fit any theory if you please.

That has corrupted much b12 research unfortunately.


Belief does not precede reality

This is probably not the place for a deep philosophical discussion about the nature of reality. However, at the shallowest level belief, including the operating theory of that person, certainly controls interpretation of events.

It's a person's belief that affects how they interpret and react to whatever occurs. So if a person has a panic attack and stops at the first step of passing through a sequence that leads to healing then starts and stops again and again, then they may repeat the first step over and over never getting through the sequence. However one must use good judgment if there is danger and do what is best for their own protection. So what they believe does cause an interpretation of what they think reality is, whatever it actually is. This is not meant to be advice about any specific situation, just a shallow philosophical example of how a persons belief affects their perception of and reaction to "reality".

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I am OK, went to the dr. yesterday and brought all my bottles of B12 and also the potassium. I did not have any problem with my liver and he suspected it was the potassium causing the severe nausea, dizziness and tingling in feet. He checked all the B12s and said he did not think any of them should cause any problems especially what I was experiencing. He wanted to give me a B12 injection but I rejected it because I have had several before with no benefits. I stopped the potassium on Monday night and did not resume them and today the nausea & dizziness is gone. I was back on the B12s as soon as I left the dr's office. He mentioned that I could possibly take the potassium once or twice a week. I am thinking I will eat a banana a day & see what happens.

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, I am OK, went to the dr. yesterday and brought all my bottles of B12 and also the potassium. I did not have any problem with my liver and he suspected it was the potassium causing the severe nausea, dizziness and tingling in feet. He checked all the B12s and said he did not think any of them should cause any problems especially what I was experiencing. He wanted to give me a B12 injection but I rejected it because I have had several before with no benefits. I stopped the potassium on Monday night and did not resume them and today the nausea & dizziness is gone. I was back on the B12s as soon as I left the dr's office. He mentioned that I could possibly take the potassium once or twice a week. I am thinking I will eat a banana a day & see what happens.

Lena

Hi Lena,

He didn't do a blood draw to check potassium levels? I'm glad the nauesea and dizziness are gone. Be on the alert for a change in muscle spasm characteristics. Good to hear of no liver problems. I had liver problems for at least 6 or 7 years during the deficiency periods.

 

[Sunday]

Lena, I'm glad you were able to sort out your problem - or at least it's looking that way. Potassium: who knew?

 

[Sunday]

order of supplements

Freddd, after I stabilize with adb12 I want to go on to the next thing: would it be best to make that l-carnitine fumarate or the mb12, in your opinion?

The adb12 burns in my mouth a little, also - how shall I put this delicately? - on the other end of the digestive tract. Do you have any idea what this might signify?

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, after I stabilize with adb12 I want to go on to the next thing: would it be best to make that l-carnitine fumarate or the mb12, in your opinion?

The adb12 burns in my mouth a little, also - how shall I put this delicately? - on the other end of the digestive tract. Do you have any idea what this might signify?

Hi Sunday,

The adb12 burns in my mouth a little, also - how shall I put this delicately? - on the other end of the digestive tract. Do you have any idea what this might signify

I haven't a clue. I have found the adb12 tablet to be totally innocuous. As it affects cells by activating mitochondria, but not healing tissues, you might be feeling the lack of the effects of mb12. Burning sensations in epithelial tissues is characteristic of mb12 deficiency.

So at this point my vote would be mb12 to start next for balance rather than kick up adb12 response another notch.

 

[Sunday]

Thanks Fred, that's very helpful. mb12 it is, for my next exciting adventure.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Freddd--

In my case, and in others that Rich has mentioned, B12 has caused heavy metal detox symptoms.

PROOF THAT adB12 DID INDEED CAUSE HEAVY METAL DETOX.

ON 10/02/09 I did a fecal metals test through Doctor's Data. That was the day that I had the adverse reaction to the B12, which both I and my acupuncturist suspected was causing heavy metal detox symptoms. Fortunately I had one of the kits at home to do the test!

THE RESULTS of the test indicate the presence of several toxic levels, most notably:
ARSENIC, BERYLLIUM, CADMIUM, COPPER, LEAD, NICKEL and very high levels of THALLIUM.

I knew from my symptoms alone that the heavy metals were getting released. Now I have the results to prove it. My prior tests did not show these high levels.

 

[lebowski]

b12 - response to interferons

hi freddd ,

i was reading about what could be done against this new retrovirus and learned that it may be killed by interferon b ( i forgot where i read this but was a scientific paper i think ) .. so maybe a simple explanation of ur observations is that , natural interferons of the body can work more effective against this xmrv ? as in the situation hcv, when there is more b12
if this is true can b12 be a big gun against this disease ? maybe with some interferon boosters ..


Vitamin B12 Levels May Help Predict Response to Interferon-based Therapy for Chronic Hepatitis C
By Liz Highleyman

Serum levels of vitamin B12 may be among the factors that can help predict whether patients with chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection will respond to interferon-based treatment, according to a study by researchers from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm presented this week at the annual Digestive Disease Week (DDW 2009) meeting in Chicago.

Vitamin B12 is stored in hepatocytes (liver cells) and inhibits HCV RNA translation, the investigators noted as background. However, the association between B12 levels and antiviral treatment outcomes is not clear.

In this retrospective study, the researchers sought to determine whether pretreatment serum B12 levels could predict end-of treatment response (ETR) in 99 treatment-naive chronic hepatitis C patients treated with interferon-based therapy.

Standard treatment, consisting of pegylated interferon plus ribavirin, lasts 48 weeks for patients with HCV genotypes 1 or 4, and 24 weeks for those with easier-to-treat genotypes 2 or 3. HCV relapse may occur after the end of treatment, so a "cure" is usually considered sustained virological response 6 months after completion of therapy.

Results

The mean pretreatment serum B12 level was 331 pmol/L in patients who achieved ETR, significantly higher than the mean 260 pmol/L in non-responders (P = 0.012).

Among participants with serum B12 levels of 360 pmol/L or less, 68.5% achieved ETR and 31.5% were non-responders.

Among patients with serum B12 levels greater than 360 pmol/L, 96.2% achieved ETR and only 1 (3.8%) was a non-responder.

In a multivariate analysis, factors significantly associated with ETR were:


Pretreatment serum B12 > 360 pmol/L vs < 360 pmol/L: odds ratio [OR] 28.6 (P = 0.008);


Advanced fibrosis or cirrhosis (stage F3-F4) vs stage F0-F2: OR 0.29 (P = 0.068).

HCV genotypes 2 or 3 vs genotypes 1, 4, or 5: OR 15.5 (P = 0.0012);

Medication dose reduction vs no reduction: OR 0.21 (P = 0.034);

Use of conventional vs pegylated interferon: OR 0.079 (P = 0.019).

Patient age and sex, however, were not correlated with ETR.

Based on these findings, the investigators concluded, "Serum B12 > 360 pmol/L is independently correlated to ETR in HCV patients treated with interferon and ribavirin. This suggests that B12 is involved in suppression of viral replication during anti- HCV treatment."

Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Karolinska University Hospital, Stockholm, Sweden; Department of Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden

6/5/09

Reference

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/2009icr/ddw/docs/060509_b.html

 

[Freddd]

PROOF THAT adB12 DID INDEED CAUSE HEAVY METAL DETOX.

ON 10/02/09 I did a fecal metals test through Doctor's Data. That was the day that I had the adverse reaction to the B12, which both I and my acupuncturist suspected was causing heavy metal detox symptoms. Fortunately I had one of the kits at home to do the test!

THE RESULTS of the test indicate the presence of several toxic levels, most notably:
ARSENIC, BERYLLIUM, CADMIUM, COPPER, LEAD, NICKEL and very high levels of THALLIUM.

I knew from my symptoms alone that the heavy metals were getting released. Now I have the results to prove it. My prior tests did not show these high levels.

Hi Dreambirdie,

Thankyou.

Then the question is, does that occur because your body can sucessfuly convert adb12 to mb12 and then that happens because of the methylation by mb12 or some other effect and reason directly from adb12. Also, was there a garlic scent on your breath from the arsenic? That would indicate methylation. I don't expect you to have these answers. I don't know that anybody does. But these questions need to have answers in order to understand what was going on. Do you have quantitative reports? Or parts per billion or whatever or?

And now just purely curiosity. Where in heck does thallium come from? Do you know where the arsenic may come from? Well water? Any answers you may have would be helpful.

 

[lebowski]

a patent

and there is a patent

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6908611.html

Pharmaceutical compositions for treating viral, proliferative and inflammatory diseases are disclosed comprising an amount of pharmaceutically acceptable vitamin B12 compound in combination with an interferon compound. Vitamin B12 compounds are administered separately, simultaneously or in combination with interferon compounds to provide an enhanced therapeutic effect for treating viral, proliferative and inflammatory diseases.

which has a referances like ,

•Johnson et al., Scientific American, May, 1994, pp. 68-75.
•Iigo Masaaki et al., “Markedly induced asialoGM1+CD8+ T cell production and enhancement of antimetastatic activity by interferon beta with folic or folinic acid”, XP002227203 abstract, Cancer Immunology Immunotherapy, vol. 44, No. 2, 1997, pp. 65-69, ISSN: 0340-7004.
•R. Medenica et al., “Vitamin B-12, A Positive Stimulator of Interferon Activity”, Cancer Immuno-Biology Laboratory and Adolph Coors Clinic of Immunoregulation, Hilton Head Island, SC, abstract; 1995.

it says it improves interferon activity ..

i did not read the patent yet and dont think i can understand it all , i hope u can take a look at it ..