B-12 - The Hidden Story

[howirecovered]

Quick update on my unpleasant folate increase experience - after reading http://howirecovered.com/walloped-by-folate/ Fred asked if I was exceeding his recommendations on B1, B2 and B3 doses (max of 30-40 mg for b1 and b2, 100 mg max for b3). My answer was 'yes - I have been exceeding those doses significantly so I'm going to reduce them for three days to see if I feel better.' At higher doses, Fred's need for potassium was insatiable (so is mine).

So about two weeks after reducing B1 B2 and B3 doses I feel a little more relaxed with a little less cramping. It isn't a dramatic change so I can't be certain. But, I did another folate increase (same 200 mcg increase) and this time it went smoothly. Can't say for sure whether or not the change in B1 B2 and B3 is responsible - I also was very careful to pace out my B12 sublinguals whereas on the day I had all the trouble, I believe I took them too quickly... I also started using a sublingual B2, so as usual, too many changes to know anything definitively.

Thanks Fred!!

 

[keenly]

High dose B12; Hydroxy and adenosylcobalamin is like a miracle for me. Only with doses above 20mg daily though which i can't afford anymore. Lower doses have NO effect on my circulation or orthostatic intolerance.

 

[Freddd]

High dose B12; Hydroxy and adenosylcobalamin is like a miracle for me. Only with doses above 20mg daily though which i can't afford anymore. Lower doses have NO effect on my circulation or orthostatic intolerance.

Hi Keenly,

As a 5 Star MeCbl is 100 to 10,000 times more effective than HyCbl, you might consider a switch to something effective. Further L-methylfolate and the correct carnitine can make far more difference.

 

[Xhale19991]

I have been following the protocol for 2 days now and have some issues. First off here are my dosages....

Jarrow Methyl b12- 5k mcg twice a day
Source Naturals Dibencozide- 1 pill a day
Metafolin- 2400 mcg a day
Jarrow L-Carnitine- 500mg twice a day
Fish Oil

Does this look right?

I have been getting bad stomach pain, and headaches since starting..... Should I change the doses/brands of anything I am taking or just ride this out a bit longer?

 

[Freddd]

I have been following the protocol for 2 days now and have some issues. First off here are my dosages....

Jarrow Methyl b12- 5k mcg twice a day
Source Naturals Dibencozide- 1 pill a day
Metafolin- 2400 mcg a day
Jarrow L-Carnitine- 500mg twice a day
Fish Oil

Does this look right?

I have been getting bad stomach pain, and headaches since starting..... Should I change the doses/brands of anything I am taking or just ride this out a bit longer?

You need the basics, a, b-complex, c,d,e zinc, magnesium, lecithin, omega3 oils and so on, ther basics. Potassium sounds like a good guess. Switching to The Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex and one of the two 5 star MeCbl will give a much better idea of what is going on.

Version 1.2 12/08/2013

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


Old symptoms returning

Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

 

[Xhale19991]

I was under the impression the the Jarrow brand was the best MeCbl out there based on the guide. What are the other two?

You need the basics, a, b-complex, c,d,e zinc, magnesium, lecithin, omega3 oils and so on, ther basics. Potassium sounds like a good guess. Switching to The Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex and one of the two 5 star MeCbl will give a much better idea of what is going on.

Version 1.2 12/08/2013

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


Old symptoms returning

Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

 

[Freddd]

I was under the impression the the Jarrow brand was the best MeCbl out there based on the guide. What are the other two?

About 20 months ago Jarrow changed their MeCbl and it ceased being 5 star. I had a serious setback along with others. The two 5 Star MeCbl brands Are Enzymatic Therapy 1mg and conditionally Country Life Methylb12 mg product 6304. The 5 start AdoCbl is Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex.. We have no control over the changes manufacturers make and brands can change for better or worse.

Also all the basics, a, d, c, e, b-complex (low dose no folic acid no CyCbl) magnesium, zinc, lecithin, omegaa3 oils. Then potassium to take care of low potassium induced by methylation startup and healing. That can be dangerous and even fatal if ignored and can have a person feeling really awful. By taking the basics it usually comes down to only 2 induced deficiencies that are significant. Without the basics a person might run into 10 or 15 in a row and it gets very complicated and difficult to solve.

 

[knackers323]

@Freddd is there a multi of some sort that we can use to at least cover some of the basics? So we can cut down on the amount of tablets needed.

 

[whodathunkit]

Hello, Freddd--

Have been following your recommendations for a couple of weeks and have been having great results. I don't have CFS but a lifelong laundry list of low-level symptoms that can be helped by addressing methylation defects and other problems that you all are dealing with here.

Thanks so much for all your help and time in getting word of this out to the rest of us.

I have a question regarding injectable mB12. I recently a script from my doc, and from the first injection really helped me. But I'm reading, reading, reading, and came across something you said that makes me ask: if my injectable methylcobalamin is already pink going into the syringe, is it already degraded to the point of uselessness? Or at least degraded into hydroxycobalamin?

I'm worried my compounding pharmacy might not take proper care, as I think it was pink from the first injection. Now it definitely is, although it's in a brown bottle and I have kept it in the box and in the fridge except for the brief moments when I'm filling the syringe.

When I get more I will definitely do your trick of wrapping in foil, but for now I just would like to know about the pink color.

Thanks again for all you do!

 

[Freddd]

Hello, Freddd--

Have been following your recommendations for a couple of weeks and have been having great results. I don't have CFS but a lifelong laundry list of low-level symptoms that can be helped by addressing methylation defects and other problems that you all are dealing with here.

Thanks so much for all your help and time in getting word of this out to the rest of us.

I have a question regarding injectable mB12. I recently a script from my doc, and from the first injection really helped me. But I'm reading, reading, reading, and came across something you said that makes me ask: if my injectable methylcobalamin is already pink going into the syringe, is it already degraded to the point of uselessness? Or at least degraded into hydroxycobalamin?

I'm worried my compounding pharmacy might not take proper care, as I think it was pink from the first injection. Now it definitely is, although it's in a brown bottle and I have kept it in the box and in the fridge except for the brief moments when I'm filling the syringe.

When I get more I will definitely do your trick of wrapping in foil, but for now I just would like to know about the pink color.

Thanks again for all you do!

Hi Whodathunkit,

That is the natural color of b12. The problem is that if you see it, it is being exposed to light and is being damaged. I wrap the syringe in foil too, as exposure is cumulative and about 10x faster in a syringe than in a vial.

 

[whodathunkit]

Excellent. Thanks, Freddd, for the fast reply! I think I'm okay, then. The bottle is brown, has only ever lived in its box, and I inject within a 15 seconds or so of pulling the fluid. I'll definitely cover the bottle with foil and be extra careful from here on out, but at least I don't think I've ruined my current batch yet. I'm only doing about 2mg/day because my problems are not as severe as yours, and also because I do a couple sublinguals later in the day, so I don't go through a vial as quickly as you.

But I'm curious about your injection technique. How do you accurately fill a syringe if it's covered with foil? Do you cover the syringe with foil to the line where you want it filled? Or do you cover immediately after filling? Do you mind 'splaining?

 

[Freddd]

I get 20mg/ml solution. I use a 0.5ml insulin syringe for subcutaneous injections. My dose is 10 mg, which is a full 0.5ml syringe. Through the 31 gauge needle there is lots of difference between the liquid and air so I can feel that. Then I preload the syringe with air and wrap in foil. Then it is only a matter to bring it out the same amount. In some other doses I've held an empty syringe with the plunger pulled out to the right distance next to it.

 

[mgd1972]

Hi Mgd,

Methylfolate is a good idea and it's lack might be the cause of what you are feeling.

I have been taking Thorne 5-MTHF 1000 mg and Thorne b-complex with another 400 mcg of 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, glucosamine salt. Sometimes I take twice this in a day, although often in the evenings I'm too tired to even count out and swallow pills.

Are these the right kids of Methylfolate or should I switch to the Solgar one?

Other than not taking it at the same time as potassium, does it matter when you take the Methylfolate, I.e. can I take the whole day's dose at once or should it be spread out? Can I take it at the same time as the b12s?

How much methlfolate should I be taking? How do I know if I am taking too much or too little? When I read the list of over and under methylation symptoms, I have lots on both lists.

I'm currently taking:

10 mg mb12
10 mg adb12
1000 mcg 5-MTHF
1000 mg potassium citrate (sometimes another 500)
480 mg magnesium glycinate
B-complex (incl 400 mcg 5-MTHF)
Fish oil
Vit c
Probiotics
Molybdenum

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[Freddd]

I have been taking Thorne 5-MTHF 1000 mg and Thorne b-complex with another 400 mcg of 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, glucosamine salt. Sometimes I take twice this in a day, although often in the evenings I'm too tired to even count out and swallow pills.

Are these the right kids of Methylfolate or should I switch to the Solgar one?

Other than not taking it at the same time as potassium, does it matter when you take the Methylfolate, I.e. can I take the whole day's dose at once or should it be spread out? Can I take it at the same time as the b12s?

How much methlfolate should I be taking? How do I know if I am taking too much or too little? When I read the list of over and under methylation symptoms, I have lots on both lists.

I'm currently taking:

10 mg mb12
10 mg adb12
1000 mcg 5-MTHF
1000 mg potassium citrate (sometimes another 500)
480 mg magnesium glycinate
B-complex (incl 400 mcg 5-MTHF)
Fish oil
Vit c
Probiotics
Molybdenum

Thanks again for all of your help!

HI Mgd,

Which Thorne b-complex? Please post a link.

 

[mgd1972]

HI Mgd,

Which Thorne b-complex? Please post a link.

http://thorne-ca.safety-cart.com/products/mood-sleep/thorne-b-complex.html

 

[Radio]

I get 20mg/ml solution. I use a 0.5ml insulin syringe for subcutaneous injections. My dose is 10 mg, which is a full 0.5ml syringe. Through the 31 gauge needle there is lots of difference between the liquid and air so I can feel that. Then I preload the syringe with air and wrap in foil. Then it is only a matter to bring it out the same amount. In some other doses I've held an empty syringe with the plunger pulled out to the right distance next to it.

Hey Fred,

I have fully recovery from CFS and your protocol was a major factor in my healing. I have discovered that if I focused on supporting the mitochondria first., I was able to tolerate your B12 protocol with out triggering the potassium depletion. Also, my cells needed less active B vitamins because absorption into the cell was increased dramatically.

By repairing the mitochondria first, we allow our cells to increase their nutrient uptake so that methylation support will have the most dramatic effect. Lipid replacement therapy is a critical step in balancing methylation without over-driving this metabolism. Please review my thread if you have a chance. Also, I want to thank you for your determination in helping others in this great forum.


Reverse-Mitochondrial-Damage-101
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/reverse-mitochondrial-damage-101.28175/

 

[shah78]

I couldn't agree with you more. Methylation start up was about as smooth as I could ever have hoped for. I got a little swooshing tinnitus/high blood pressure(140over 80) (high for me). rapid pulse (80). Relieved quickly with 2 grams of K+. thank you Freddd. Half my problem was that I was in ketosis for seven weeks. Another K+ drainer. I escaped unscathed, but I was perhaps an idiot for taking the risk. Radio, you and I are about the only ones who pound the nutrition angle. There are almost no threads on diet here. Any clues why? Your thread on potato starch is about the only one, and it's ironic that we(the humans that is) don't even do the actual digesting.

 

[Radio]

Radio, you and I are about the only ones who pound the nutrition angle. There are almost no threads on diet here. Any clues why? angle. There are almost no threads on diet here. Any clues why?

You make a great point...I would love to see what diet Fred recommends...When I was sick I focused on customizing a comprehensive protocol that looked at all aspects of holistic healing. Diets can be very confusing and there is alot of conflicting information out there....Everyone's body reacts to food differently...I really like the low histamine chef diet and recommend it to everyone as a great starting point in nutritional healing.


Low-Histamine-Chef-Diet
http://thelowhistaminechef.com/

 

[Freddd]

Actually I have experimented with diet considerably for 40 years. I eat almost no white flour or white flour products avoiding folic acid. I have to limit the amount of dietary folates but eat a good mix of veggies, which I grow in my organic garden as much as possible. I started lecithin about 40 years ago and omega3 oils before they were identified as such. I have avoided transfats for a good 40 years as well. I identified the need for MeCbl, AdoCbl and methylfolate by 1978 or 79, 20+ years before they started becoming possible and confirmed it with a desiccated liver trial for 2 years at that time. I eat almost no prepared foods and none with vitamins added. Before MeCbl I was becoming increasingly intolerant of almost everything over a 25 year period. After MeCbl I became increasing tolerant of foods in general and finally eliminated milk and cheese because I could now tell it made a huge difference.

Histamine response was entirely dependent upon folate state and nothing at all to do with foods as far as I can tell.. Now it may actually have been too much B1, B2 and/or B3 that caused or contributed to the problem. However, I only have histamine responses in methyltrap or less so in partial methylation block, which is to say paradoxical folate deficiency, regardless of what causes it. With sufficiency of l-methylfolate, I have only used Metafolin so far and who can argue with success, I have no noticeable histamine responses and no noticeable inflammation and nothing to indicate any. I do take chondroitin & glucosamine that reduces pain almost completely from old sports injuries in my knees and hips. I used to take 2400mg a day of ibuprofen but ceased needing it 10 years ago. The only recurrence of needing it and it being effective was during and after the glutathione trial that put me into methyltrap. I had massive pain and inflammation throughout my body increasing daily during that trial. As soon as I got my AdoCbl and MeCbl levels back up and upped my Metafolin sufficiently it all went away within days. Glutathione cleaned out both b12s so completely it caused me to have separate body and CNS startup for each kind all over again for the only time since the original four startup occurrences.

I also have practiced Tantric Alchemy generating oxytocin since I was about 12 years old.

 

[whodathunkit]

I get 20mg/ml solution. I use a 0.5ml insulin syringe for subcutaneous injections. My dose is 10 mg, which is a full 0.5ml syringe. Through the 31 gauge needle there is lots of difference between the liquid and air so I can feel that. Then I preload the syringe with air and wrap in foil. Then it is only a matter to bring it out the same amount. In some other doses I've held an empty syringe with the plunger pulled out to the right distance next to it.

Dunno how I missed this earlier. Makes sense. Thanks again for the input, Freddd! Happy Valentines, too, BTW.