B-12 - The Hidden Story

[howirecovered]

from my blog: I got my ass kicked yesterday by folate. Every Friday for the last few weeks I've increased folate by (my standard) one quarter tablet which amounts to 200 mcg. Normally, I feel a little fatigued until evening when I get some serious muggy headedness. But yesterday, it hit me early around 10 AM and lasted until I went to bed. It feels a bit like having the flu with a headache - tired, slow thinking, pressure in the head. Just wanted to curl up on the couch... full post here.

in regards to someone's question about timing - I take my folate when I wake up on an empty stomach so that as I do the mb12 during the day my methylation is ramping up until bedtime when I take niacin which I believe tamps it down again. this seems to help me sleep better. I realize some others have the opposite experience...

 

[lefti2003]

Hi Freddd
If I stop everything, i.e the b12 how long does it take for symptoms such as spasms, etc to subside. Do I still have to take potassium and Folate to counteract symptoms? Is taking Folate alone with no b12 or b complex ok?
Thorne and country life have a b complex. Thornes has one with both Calcium Folinate and L5 methylfolate. I believe country lifes is just Calcium Folinate. Why do these companies put Calcium Folinate if ut is not good? Is it cost? If some people do not have problems converting the Calcium Folinate to L5 methylfolate should this not be ok (assuming that it gets converted to such).
Thanks
Lefti

 

[knackers323]

So the recommend methyl B12 now is the enzymatic therapy B12 infusion chewable tablets that only come in 1mg dose?
No alternative and cannot be brought in a higher dose?

 

[ahmo]

@knackers323, Yep.

 

[Freddd]

So the recommend methyl B12 now is the enzymatic therapy B12 infusion chewable tablets that only come in 1mg dose?
No alternative and cannot be brought in a higher dose?

Yes. So far as I know, though I'm going to start a test of another brand as soon as it arrives in a day or 2. If it works very well I will know in days. If it is equal it could take weeks to be sure. If it is not anywhere near as good I will know in a day or 3.

 

[lefti2003]

Hi Freddd,
In one of your posts you recommended adding cofactors and vitamins in a specific ordering. Can you restate that.I recall something about adding the methylfolate first then the adnesylb12 was 3rd and finally methylb12? How long should one wait between adding each one. Usually methylfolate is found with a b-complex, can it be safely taken alone or by taking it with a b12 or b complex it enhances b12 absorption? I also contacted someone from Thorne and they mentioned there is no evidence that Calcium Folinate or methyl folate will block each other. Do you have some report of this or is it for certain gene mutations this is the case?

Thanks
Lefti

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,
In one of your posts you recommended adding cofactors and vitamins in a specific ordering. Can you restate that.I recall something about adding the methylfolate first then the adnesylb12 was 3rd and finally methylb12? How long should one wait between adding each one. Usually methylfolate is found with a b-complex, can it be safely taken alone or by taking it with a b12 or b complex it enhances b12 absorption? I also contacted someone from Thorne and they mentioned there is no evidence that Calcium Folinate or methyl folate will block each other. Do you have some report of this or is it for certain gene mutations this is the case?

Thanks
Lefti

Hi Lefti,

I also contacted someone from Thorne and they mentioned there is no evidence that Calcium Folinate or methyl folate will block each other. Do you have some report of this or is it for certain gene mutations this is the case?

they mentioned there is no evidence that Calcium Folinate or methyl folate will block each other

I would translate that as "There is no evidence in peer reviewed articles that has been replicated several times to that they will block each other" That could take 25 years and who is going to fund that? There is no money in that kind of study. Folinic acid has only been sold for 5 or 6 years. Source Naturals, one of the first supplement makers to put Metafolin out shortly thereafter, presumably because it appears that Merck pulled Metafolin from them, presumably for not adhering to their contract requirements. Merck has emphasized that vitamin forms must match pharmaceutical standards except for dose. The put out very limited batch(es) that was being remaindered before I even saw any ads. I tried it, 400mcg from the first bottle, and ordered all the bottles I could locate, about 20, to last me until it showed up under other brands. I would have rated it 5 stars. It worked for me and was very fresh. Who knows what the problem was.

Do you have some report of this or is it for certain gene mutations this is the case?

I of course tried Folinic acid immediately, substituting 800mcg for 800mcg of Metafolin, and I was taking 4mg Metafolin at that time, because of the advertising (folinic). It blocked me worse than folic acid. I gave the rest of the bottle away. Then when I started up over here the first thing I noticed was the huge numbers here that were suffering terrible "detox" (paradoxical folate deficiency) and they were mostly taking folinic acid. There has been 5-6 years now of observing the same and lots of people trying Metafolin instead. Having learned about the folate affecting polymorphisms, that seems very likely.

We sick consumers here are the trail breakers finding all this out the hard way because of the failures of the research establishment. I may not be all that sick any more, but that is 100% conditional on being able to buy the fully functional supplements. It is still a "you bet your life" situation for me. Those are the stakes I am playing for. Continued neurological deterioration starting in 3 days after the supplements go wrong and a wheel chair 6 months or so after that. I'm still looking for that last item or two that will allow a full neurological healing, the last increment of improvement. I may make puns from time to time but I take this very seriously.

 

[lefti2003]

Hi Freddd,
I have been experiencing some nausea that had lasted for almost a week now. I stopped the methylb12 and folate for almost 1 week after getting symptoms. I do know that we had some bug run in the family that caused vomiting and diarrhea. I feel though that lurking behind there could be symptoms of over doing it with the b12. I have some twitching and spasms still. I read that if you are over methylated that niacin 50mg can help. In your experience how long do symptoms last after you discontinue and does niacin really help. I am trying to make sure this is indeed some bug and nothing more serious.

Thanks,
Lefti

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,
I have been experiencing some nausea that had lasted for almost a week now. I stopped the methylb12 and folate for almost 1 week after getting symptoms. I do know that we had some bug run in the family that caused vomiting and diarrhea. I feel though that lurking behind there could be symptoms of over doing it with the b12. I have some twitching and spasms still. I read that if you are over methylated that niacin 50mg can help. In your experience how long do symptoms last after you discontinue and does niacin really help. I am trying to make sure this is indeed some bug and nothing more serious.

Thanks,
Lefti

Hi Lefti,

In my opinion taking too much niacin can cause increased paradoxical folate deficiency and/or deplete potassium. I have no apparent problem with 100mg/day in 2 divided doses but do have a problem with 200mg/day. On the other hand my partner and I have both had some kind of stomach bug the past few days and she doesn't take anything like the selection of things I do, very little b12 comparatively and maybe 1600mcg of Metafolin if she remembers to take everything. Her compliance is slightly over 50%. She has no observable effects from any of them and doesn't have CFS/FMS or anything like it. She got dizzy and maybe a light fever this afternoon. So who knows. By this much time off the B12/folate I would have a whole bunch of symptoms coming back.

 

[lefti2003]

Hi Freddd and others
I have been having some body tremors, neck spasms, it moves around. I have itching that moves around, burning sensations that move around. Body tremors seem to get worse near bedtime. Is this a result of the b12's, methylfolate. Again I stopped everything about a week ago. Nausea from flu is clearing up but these other symptoms remain for a few days. Any ideas what to look for? Any ideas how to remedy?

Thanks,
Lefti

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd and others
I have been having some body tremors, neck spasms, it moves around. I have itching that moves around, burning sensations that move around. Body tremors seem to get worse near bedtime. Is this a result of the b12's, methylfolate. Again I stopped everything about a week ago. Nausea from flu is clearing up but these other symptoms remain for a few days. Any ideas what to look for? Any ideas how to remedy?

Thanks,
Lefti

My "stomach bug" turned out to be low potassium since my prep last week. I finally got it up high enough, the tremors, peculiar nerve "jumps", bloating very slow stomach, nausea, heart palpitations, headachy feeling, sore neck muscles,and so on all cleared up last night. I clearly need to up my potassium from where it is at for a while so I don't dip back into this.

 

[lefti2003]

Hi Freddd,
What is the best form of potassium you have used? I used one from Kal but it had Betaine HCL 16mg and Inland Sea mineral concentrate 10mg. I have read some people had some reactions to Betain HCL but many products have it in much higher dosages like upwards of 500mg so don't know.

Thanks,
Lefti

 

[finalgates]

it ok girlfromeurope

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,
What is the best form of potassium you have used? I used one from Kal but it had Betaine HCL 16mg and Inland Sea mineral concentrate 10mg. I have read some people had some reactions to Betain HCL but many products have it in much higher dosages like upwards of 500mg so don't know.

Thanks,
Lefti

Hi Lefti,

I find that the NOW foods, or any other brand of Potassium Gluconate to be the least irritating. Each tablet has 99mg of potassium though it is much larger because of the "gluconate" and binders. It says no gluten along with a lot of other things that it doesn't have. Most tablets like this in the USA have 90-99mg of potassium. Chloride comes as granules that one can put up to 500mg in a capsule. However, that has to be taken with a meal. Chloride is more irritating. It can also be sprinkled on food as a salt substitute. Betain HCL has hydrochloric acid and should not be taken in any large amount.

 

[girlfromeurope]

I have a b12 deficiency and I am wondering if I have to take the sublinguals forever? Or can I stop after a couple of months supplementing? (If I take away the cause of the deficiency, low stomach acid in my case)

I also read that the damage of this deficiency is irreversible after 6 months of no treatment.
Is this true? I'm scared.

 

[mgd1972]

@Freddd I stumbled across this protocol over Christmas and have been following it to some degree (not to the letter, but fairly closely). I have had fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue since Jan 2012. Right before then I had a series of sinus infections and took a strong antibiotic, and was told my b12 was very low and started supplementing with b12 (likely cyano or hydroxy, not sure). I feel this is somehow connected to developing FM/CFS. I have also always had difficulty tolerating sulfites and some high sulfur foods, so I'm very intrigued by the connection between all 3 of these things - sulfur metabolism, b12 deficiency and CFS, perhaps the FM too? I have many, many questions! First, can you tell me how best to schedule the supplements throughout the day? I'm a bit confused. I'm taking 1mg of 5-MTHF first thing in the morning, then about an hour later I take my other supplements (most of which I repeat in the evening) and the first of my b12 sublingual tablets. I'm taking the jarrow formulas mb12 5 mg because of cost and also to avoid sucking on lozenges constantly! I hate the taste and all of the fillers, etc, but I'm thinking of ordering the 1mg ones you recommend to see if I notice a difference. I had a pretty noticeable start up reaction to the adb12 - severe headache for 3 days, but that has gone away and I continue to take 10mg Source Naturals dibencozide. I take it all at once in the morning, and the mb12 I take over the day. I take 2 of the 5 mg mb12 tabs divided in half, so 4 times per day for a total of 10 mg. I havent noticed much reaction from mb12, perhaps because of the brand Im using. Im having trouble sleeping and wondering if the timing of my supplements could help this? How late should I take my last mb12 and my Thorne research b complex (includes both mb12 and 5-MTHF)? I take 1000-1500 mg potassium citrate per day, the last dose before bed along with magnesium glycinate 240 mg). I take a few other things (probiotic 2 g per day, fish oil 3000-6000mg per day, vit c 500-1000 mg per day, molybdenum 1 mg in the morning, and another 240 mg of magnesium in the morning). Thank you so much for your help through this forum. I feel very hopeful that this protocol will be the key to my healing. I have been doing everything I can to feel better - I follow the GAPS diet (no grains, sugars or starch), do rehab physio exercises twice a week, infrared sauna, massage, accupuncture - and have improved over the last 2 years but still a long way to go. I also have multiple food sensitivities, but the sulfur/sulfite one is the main one, apart from preservatives like MSG, etc. I'm not sure all of this info is relevant, but include this in case you have any further advice. Thanks again.

 

[Freddd]

I have a b12 deficiency and I am wondering if I have to take the sublinguals forever? Or can I stop after a couple of months supplementing? (If I take away the cause of the deficiency, low stomach acid in my case)

I also read that the damage of this deficiency is irreversible after 6 months of no treatment.
Is this true? I'm scared.

Hi Girlfromeurope,

The answers to your questions are incredibly more complicated than I can answer here. The first thing to do is read this http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...y-deadlock-quartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/ and make a list of all your symptoms. Those will distinguish how much is functional and easily corrected versus damage which can take longer.

What is "permanent" damage depends upon what forms of cobalamin we are talking about. So what would be permanent damage with HyCbl and CyCbl and folic acid may be able to heal with MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine of the right doses and cofactors.

It can take years to heal some types of damage and stopping after a few months means starting over again and again. That appears to make the damage more and more difficulty to heal.

 

[mgd1972]

I am now noticing a reaction to the Jarrow Formulas MB12 5000 mg. I take a half at a time, and get a strange headache across my forehead, almost a stoned feeling. Is this a good sign, or should I increase potassium or any of the co-factors? I have already taken 1000 mg of potassium this morning.

 

[S.A.]

Just posting a corrected link to the paper:

http://www.drneubrander.com/Files/Methyl-B12; Myth, Masterpiece, or Miracle.pdf

Laura

Wow! Great article!

 

[Freddd]

I am now noticing a reaction to the Jarrow Formulas MB12 5000 mg. I take a half at a time, and get a strange headache across my forehead, almost a stoned feeling. Is this a good sign, or should I increase potassium or any of the co-factors? I have already taken 1000 mg of potassium this morning.

Hi Mgd,

I have no idea what it might mean with the Jarrow. Since they ceased being sufficiently effective for many of us 18 months ago, I can't suggest them any longer. The two most effective brands I know of currently are Country Life Methyl b12 5mg, make sure of that specific one, none of the others they make are the same and some have folic acid in them and Enzymatic Therapy 1mg. I would suggest one or both of these other two brands and then see what the effect is. Methylfolate is a good idea and it's lack might be the cause of what you are feeling.