B-12 - The Hidden Story

[richvank]

What about the use of hydroxy b12 instead of methyl b12 since I did have a b12 deficiency last year, would the sublingual hydroxy deliver enough active b12 to the body

Hi, retireddpm.

It does for most people, based on the results of our clinical study and anecdotal experiences reported by people in the internet groups, but probably not for all, depending on genetic polymorphisms that people have inherited, and how low their glutathione and SAMe levels are. For very low glutathione or SAMe, methyl B12 may be needed. For genetic polymorphisms of the type that Freddd apparently has, methyl B12 is needed. Dr. Yasko recommends methyl B12 for people who do not have the COMT polymorphisms, especially if they do have the VDR Taq polymorphism. I think that trying it is about the best way to see how a person will respond.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[retireddpm]

What I could find locally was L Glutathione and NAC Is there any possibility the L Glutathione might be absorbed

Thanks

 

[richvank]

What I could find locally was L Glutathione and NAC Is there any possibility the L Glutathione might be absorbed

Thanks

Hi, retireddpm.

Glutathione is broken down in the gut and absorbed as amino acids. Some of them get to liver, where they can be used to re-form glutathione, but this has not been found to be a very effective way to boost glutathione in the cells.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[retireddpm]

Rich
What about starting with hydroxy b12 and then add some methyl b12

 

[therron]

Has anyone had problems with methyl b12 where an existing anxiety or nervous system arousal is made worse when taking methyl b12. I think this happens and can not be written off to start up effect.

Yes, I have gotten terrible excitoxicity every time I've started methylation supplements. I was finally able to get past this by going to a miniscule dose and working my way up. I am up to 500 mcg now, and do not have the nervous system arousal that I did in the beginning. Upping my methylfolate (after about 3 months on Freddd's protocol), seemed to provide additional help with a feeling of calm, which never happened with MB12.

 

[drex13]

Hi, retireddpm.

I think this is due to an increase in the excitotoxicity of the neurons that have NMDA glutamate receptors. When methionine synthase is first stimulated using B12 and folate, it converts more of the homocysteine into methionine, so that less enters the transsulfuration pathway to support glutathione synthesis. Glutathione therefore drops initially on this type of treatment, and that impacts the ability of the astrocytes in the brain to import glutamate and convert it to glutamine for recycle back to the neurons. The glutamate level in the synapses thus stays too high, and that causes too much stimulation of the NMDA receptors, raising the state of excitotoxicity. Anxiety, insomnia and nervousness are symptoms of excitotoxicity.

This should calm down as the methylation cycle recovers and more homocysteine is available to go to glutathione synthesis. In the meantime, I have suggested that using some liposomal glutathione might help. The new acetyl glutathione that is supplied by Allergy Research Group might also be a possibility. I haven't had much feedback on this yet, so can't say for sure if it will work.

There are several other supplements that may help with excitotoxicity. Among them are magnesium, taurine, progesterone cream, GABA, theanine, Valerian root and some others. Dr. Yasko has suggested these in her book "Autism, Pathways to Recovery."

Rich

Speaking of liposomal glutathione, who is using it and where are you buying it ? It appears to not be cheap. The brands I found on Amazon were $60 to $65 for 4 oz. I was considering trying it, as I have increased anxiety issues with the B-12 protocol (s).

thanks, Drex

 

[Sallysblooms]

I use Liposomal Glutathione and Lipo. Vit. C every day. I have noticed improvement with CFS and POTS. I buy the Livon Labs brand.

 

[retireddpm]

hydroxy b12 with or without methyl b12

Maybe if one is b12 deficient and having problems with tingling etc from the methyl b12, then hydroxy by itself or with some methyl b12 would be better or more natural way as opposed to having the body flooded with methyl b12 with not enough glutathione. Is it correct to assume that the hydroxy form will be converted as the glutathione is available?

 

[richvank]

Maybe if one is b12 deficient and having problems with tingling etc from the methyl b12, then hydroxy by itself or with some methyl b12 would be better or more natural way as opposed to having the body flooded with methyl b12 with not enough glutathione. Is it correct to assume that the hydroxy form will be converted as the glutathione is available?

Hi, retireddpm.

Yes, if glutathione and SAMe are available, some of the hydroxo B12 will be converted to methyl B12 in the cells. If glutathione and ATP are sufficiently available, some will also be converted to adenosyl B12. This is the way the intracellular B12 metabolism normally works. Some people have genetic abnormalities in one or more of the intracellular B12 processing enzymes, and this interferes with the conversion to methyl B12, adenosyl B12, or both, depending on which polymorphism is present. Freddd appears to have a polymorphism in his B12 processing enzymes, which makes it necessary for him to take high dosages of both of the coenzyme forms of B12.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[lampkld2]

Hi Rich. Does a MTHFR snp affect B12 conversion as well as Folate? I have a MTHFR homozygous SNP, CBS heterozygous and COMT homzygous SNP. My homocystine is 10 ish. I am thinking I should start out with hydroxy again because of my COMT issue, but I am concerned it might not be converted. I also have to worry about ammonia ... right? What is the best way to test for ammonia issues?

Thanks

 

[retireddpm]

Hi, retireddpm.

Yes, if glutathione and SAMe are available, some of the hydroxo B12 will be converted to methyl B12 in the cells. If glutathione and ATP are sufficiently available, some will also be converted to adenosyl B12. This is the way the intracellular B12 metabolism normally works. Some people have genetic abnormalities in one or more of the intracellular B12 processing enzymes, and this interferes with the conversion to methyl B12, adenosyl B12, or both, depending on which polymorphism is present. Freddd appears to have a polymorphism in his B12 processing enzymes, which makes it necessary for him to take high dosages of both of the coenzyme forms of B12.

Best regards,

Rich

Rich

Where does one get this testing done? Can you take methyl and hydroxy b12 at the same time to cover all bases?

Thanks

 

[richvank]

Rich

Where does one get this testing done? Can you take methyl and hydroxy b12 at the same time to cover all bases?

Thanks

Hi, retireddpm.

I don't think these are routinely measured.

Some of the polymorphisms in some of these genes are included in the www.23andme.com genotyping panel. There is a lab in Toronto that specializes in genetic abnormalities in the B12 processing enzymes: Division of Clinical and Metabolic Genetics, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada.

Yes, a person can take both forms, or even all three: hydroxo, methyl and adenosyl. Dr. Yasko (www.holisticheal.com) supplies drops of all three. ProHealth makes a supplement that contains these as well as cyano. I don't prefer taking cyano in large dosages, because the body has to get rid of the cyanide.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[mellster]

Hi Rich, since methylation evolves pretty much around B-12 and we already talked about detox etc. I am wondering at what point in the daily methylation cycle it is most appropriate to work out/exert in order not to disturb needed resting cycles or short naps that are needed for healing. Thanks

 

[retireddpm]

Hi, retireddpm.

I don't think these are routinely measured.

Some of the polymorphisms in some of these genes are included in the www.23andme.com genotyping panel. There is a lab in Toronto that specializes in genetic abnormalities in the B12 processing enzymes: Division of Clinical and Metabolic Genetics, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada.

Yes, a person can take both forms, or even all three: hydroxo, methyl and adenosyl. Dr. Yasko (www.holisticheal.com) supplies drops of all three. ProHealth makes a supplement that contains these as well as cyano. I don't prefer taking cyano in large dosages, because the body has to get rid of the cyanide.

Best regards,

Rich

Rich thanks for all the help. What about the test that tells if methylated products are good or bad and if you are under or over methylator with the compt. How does one get these tests

Thanks

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich, since methylation evolves pretty much around B-12 and we already talked about detox etc. I am wondering at what point in the daily methylation cycle it is most appropriate to work out/exert in order not to disturb needed resting cycles or short naps that are needed for healing. Thanks

Hi, mellster.

I don't know about the timing of exercise, but I think it's best to approach exercise gradually. Do a little the first day, and then wait a day to see how well it was tolerated. If you are O.K. the next day, then you can add a little, wait another day to check it, etc. The main thing is not to overdo. But getting some tolerable amount of exercise is beneficial.

Rich

 

[retireddpm]

excitotoxocity

Any thoughts whether hydroxy b12 could cause over excitement of the nervous system,with symptoms of tingling and numbness in the extremities

 

[Sallysblooms]

Too much B6 makes my legs tingle for sure. Some are sensitive to it.

 

[retireddpm]

Do you mean sensitive to hydroxy h12

 

[Sallysblooms]

No B6 is known for possibly causing that. Just thought you might be taking that also since B's are best together. I have no problem with B12.

 

[retireddpm]

Is it not possible?

that taking b12 especially methyl that our excitatory neurotransmitters increase causing the startup or detox effects that we feel