B-12 - The Hidden Story

[richvank]

Rich thanks for all the help. What about the test that tells if methylated products are good or bad and if you are under or over methylator with the compt. How does one get these tests

Thanks

Hi, retireddpm.

The main test panel that I recommend is the methylation pathways panel, available in the U.S. from Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey, and in the Netherlands from the European Laboratory of Nutrients. Contact info is pasted below. In the U.S., this panel costs $295, including the shipper for the samples. This panel evaluates the status of the methylation cycle, the folate metabolism and glutathione. I don't use the terms "overmethylator" or "undermethylator." These are based on some old work by the late Carl Pfeiffer, in which he used symptoms to infer the status of methylation. Nowadays, one can measure the status of methylation, and I think that's a better way to go than trying to match up symptoms, which doesn't seem to work very well in ME/CFS.

If reduced glutathione or SAMe are extremely low on this panel, then methylcobalamin will probably be needed. If not, hydroxocobalamin will probably be fine. Dr. Amy Yasko uses different criteria, based on SNPs in COMT and VDR, which requires running a nutrigenomic panel, but I currently favor this approach because I think it matches the biochemistry better.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[richvank]

Is it not possible that taking b12 especially methyl that our excitatory neurotransmitters increase causing the startup or detox effects that we feel

Hi, retireddpm.

Yes, I think so.

If you are referring to anxiety, nervousness, a "wired" feeling and insomnia, I think they result from excitotoxicity. I think that the reason excitotoxicity worsens when the methylation treatment is started is that initially it causes an additional drop in glutathione. I think this happens because more of the homocysteine is converted to methionine by the methionine synthase reaction, which is stimulated by B12 and folate. Therefore, less homocysteine flows into the transsulfuration pathway to make cysteine, and therefore less glutathione is made.

The temporarily lowered glutathione causes the mitochondria in the astrocytes to lower their rate of production of ATP. That lowers the rate of import of glutamate from the neuronal synapses, and its conversion to glutamine for recycle to the neurons. Both require ATP. The result is that the glutamate level stays too high in the synapses and overstimulates the postsynaptic NMDA receptors. This produces excitotoxicity.

After a while, the methylation cycle is built up, and then more homocysteine is available to go toward making glutathione, and the excitotoxicity is relieved.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[richvank]

Any thoughts whether hydroxy b12 could cause over excitement of the nervous system,with symptoms of tingling and numbness in the extremities

Hi, retireddpm.

I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I do think that taking forms of B12 when it has been depleted can cause these types of symptoms. B12 is very important for the nervous system.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[mellster]

If it's temporary and within hours after taking the B12 that might be an indicator. I certainly experienced such symptoms, but over time it was worth the energy increase and I am now on a rigorous methylation spree I think you have to add gradually, I am currently at 2-3 mg sublingual plus a potent B-Complex (e.g Thorne) capsule per day. I don't know whether this is actually a sign of increased absorption of the B vitamins (question to Rich), but I noticed much less discolored (fluorescent yellow/greenish) urine lately.

 

[richvank]

If it's temporary and within hours after taking the B12 that might be an indicator. I certainly experienced such symptoms, but over time it was worth the energy increase and I am now on a rigorous methylation spree I think you have to add gradually, I am currently at 2-3 mg sublingual plus a potent B-Complex (e.g Thorne) capsule per day. I don't know whether this is actually a sign of increased absorption of the B vitamins (question to Rich), but I noticed much less discolored (fluorescent yellow/greenish) urine lately.

Hi, mellster.

It's good to hear of your progress. I think the flourescent yellow/greenish color of the urine is caused by B2 (riboflavin). So if you are taking the same dosage of the B-complex and getting less color, your cells may be taking in more of the B2 from the supplement. I suppose that if you were passing more water, that would dilute the color some, too, but hopefully the treatment will cut down on the water excretion (due to diabetes insipidus, not to be confused with diabetes mellitus).

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Rockt]

The temporarily lowered glutathione causes the mitochondria in the astrocytes to lower their rate of production of ATP. That lowers the rate of import of glutamate from the neuronal synapses, and its conversion to glutamine for recycle to the neurons.

For about 6 weeks now, I've had very weak, "heavy" legs - the muscles fatigue to the point of shakiness, (like I've just done heavy leg presses), from very minor exertion ie. walking up the stairs. Also, my calves are very crampy, all the time. Doesn't this sound like a mitochondrial issue? Any ideas what might help?

 

[richvank]

The temporarily lowered glutathione causes the mitochondria in the astrocytes to lower their rate of production of ATP. That lowers the rate of import of glutamate from the neuronal synapses, and its conversion to glutamine for recycle to the neurons.

For about 6 weeks now, I've had very weak, "heavy" legs - the muscles fatigue to the point of shakiness, (like I've just done heavy leg presses), from very minor exertion ie. walking up the stairs. Also, my calves are very crampy, all the time. Doesn't this sound like a mitochondrial issue? Any ideas what might help?

Hi, Rockt.

Yes, I do think the mitochondria are involved. The cramping causes me to wonder what your magnesium status is. The best magnesium test is unfortunately not widely available, but it is the Exatest, performed by Intracellular Diagnostics in Oregon. The next best is the red blood cell test. Blood serum testing for magnesium is not a reliable indicator of the body's magnesium status. I'm not sure that your muscle fatigue and cramping are due to magnesium deficiency, but I think it is a possibility. I recommend that you ask your physician to test for it.

Magnesium is very important for ATP utilization and for controlling the rate of production of ATP by the mitochondria. The best absorbed form of magnesium is magnesium glycinate. If the kidneys are functioning normally and the person is taking in sufficient fluids, excess magnesium will be excreted in the urine, so that the limit on taking it orally will be when the stools become too loose because of the laxative effect of the magnesium that is not absorbed from the gut.

Some people benefit from Epsom salt baths, which will bring both magnesium and sulfate in through the skin. Some people do not tolerate Epsom salt baths, and I think that results from having sulfate reducing bacteria in the gut, which convert the sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. But many people do well with these baths. There is also magnesium "oil" which can be applied to the skin.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Vegas]

This is, from my experience, the hallmark of worsening condition

The temporarily lowered glutathione causes the mitochondria in the astrocytes to lower their rate of production of ATP. That lowers the rate of import of glutamate from the neuronal synapses, and its conversion to glutamine for recycle to the neurons.

For about 6 weeks now, I've had very weak, "heavy" legs - the muscles fatigue to the point of shakiness, (like I've just done heavy leg presses), from very minor exertion ie. walking up the stairs. Also, my calves are very crampy, all the time. Doesn't this sound like a mitochondrial issue? Any ideas what might help?

I always wondered if this was attributable to diminished thyroid hormone availability to the skeletal muscles via subnormal glutathione. It was especially prominent with me in the a.m. or of course, after exertion. I always correlated this with low body temps and the hpa axis dysfunction. Anyway, in my view this is definitely a worsening condition. While this should improve over time with methylation support, it may be a sign that you are doing something else that is making the situation worse, like using substances that stimulate cellular energy or mobilizing heavy metals that redistribute in more sensitive tissue areas like the hypothalmus or pituitary. I had this symptom both before and after doing the SMP. The symptom vacillated a bit after starting the SMP, then improved very gradually over six months or so. Chelation has seemingly completely resolved this. If it keeps getting worse, you need to re-examine what you are doing.

 

[Vegas]

Hi, Rockt.

Some people benefit from Epsom salt baths, which will bring both magnesium and sulfate in through the skin. Some people do not tolerate Epsom salt baths, and I think that results from having sulfate reducing bacteria in the gut, which convert the sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. But many people do well with these baths. There is also magnesium "oil" which can be applied to the skin.


Rich

Possibly some potassium along with the magnesium, but don't overdo it.

Rich, I had plenty of sulfate reducing bacteria in my gut, but Epsom salt baths never bothered me. In fact, I found them very helpful. I obviously benefited from the magnesium, but I think the sulfate was therapeutic as well. Do you not see sulfate as beneficial to most PWC's?

 

[richvank]

Possibly some potassium along with the magnesium, but don't overdo it.

Rich, I had plenty of sulfate reducing bacteria in my gut, but Epsom salt baths never bothered me. In fact, I found them very helpful. I obviously benefited from the magnesium, but I think the sulfate was therapeutic as well. Do you not see sulfate as beneficial to most PWC's?

Hi, Vegas.

How do you know about the level of sulfate-reducing bacteria that you had? Was it from a comprehensive stool test? If it was from the H2S urine test, note that high H2S can also be produced by non sulfate-reducing bacteria that convert sulfur-containing amino acids into H2S, and they may actually be the main source, according to Dr. de Meirleir.

I don't have a percentage, but I do sense that sulfate is Epsom salt baths is helpful to many PWCs. It should be especially good for the joints, because sulfate is used in cartilage to retain water. It should also be helpful in sulfating DHEA, and in the phase II sulfation detox pathway that takes out phenols and other toxins. Many PWCs go low in sulfate, based on urine test results I've seen.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Vegas]

Hi, Vegas.

How do you know about the level of sulfate-reducing bacteria that you had? Was it from a comprehensive stool test? If it was from the H2S urine test, note that high H2S can also be produced by non sulfate-reducing bacteria that convert sulfur-containing amino acids into H2S, and they may actually be the main source, according to Dr. de Meirleir.

I don't have a percentage, but I do sense that sulfate is Epsom salt baths is helpful to many PWCs. It should be especially good for the joints, because sulfate is used in cartilage to retain water. It should also be helpful in sulfating DHEA, and in the phase II sulfation detox pathway that takes out phenols and other toxins. Many PWCs go low in sulfate, based on urine test results I've seen.

The later, H2S urine, so perhaps the s-r bacteria is not so numerous.

Regarding the benefits of Sulphate, I have never had joint problems, but certainly my DHEA was quite low when previously tested. I believe the main benefits Epsom salts have conferred to me involves Phase II detox. Having experienced an overwhelming "toxic" feeling from time to time when taking methyl donors, this always made be feel better. Thanks for the response.

 

[Rockt]

Hi, Rockt.

Yes, I do think the mitochondria are involved. The cramping causes me to wonder what your magnesium status is. The best magnesium test is unfortunately not widely available, but it is the Exatest, performed by Intracellular Diagnostics in Oregon. The next best is the red blood cell test. Blood serum testing for magnesium is not a reliable indicator of the body's magnesium status. I'm not sure that your muscle fatigue and cramping are due to magnesium deficiency, but I think it is a possibility. I recommend that you ask your physician to test for it.

Magnesium is very important for ATP utilization and for controlling the rate of production of ATP by the mitochondria. The best absorbed form of magnesium is magnesium glycinate. If the kidneys are functioning normally and the person is taking in sufficient fluids, excess magnesium will be excreted in the urine, so that the limit on taking it orally will be when the stools become too loose because of the laxative effect of the magnesium that is not absorbed from the gut.

Some people benefit from Epsom salt baths, which will bring both magnesium and sulfate in through the skin. Some people do not tolerate Epsom salt baths, and I think that results from having sulfate reducing bacteria in the gut, which convert the sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. But many people do well with these baths. There is also magnesium "oil" which can be applied to the skin.

Best regards,

Rich

Thanks Rich.

Started taking mag. glycinate, (150mg at bedtime), about a month ago. I remember hearing that it works with B6, so I take 100mg B6 with it, as well. Hasn't helped yet.

Interesting that you mention kidney function. I have foamy urine, a sign of kidney trouble, but I was tested twice and my kidneys check out fine. I drink lots of water, but I don't think I have excessive thirst or frequent urination.

Freddd says the faomy urine is from folate deficiency and sure enough, the more methyfoalte, (Solgar), I take, the less foamy my urine. However, since my brief progress halted and is now regressing, I cut back on the MF in hopes that I can get back to the positive progressing again.

 

[Rockt]

I always wondered if this was attributable to diminished thyroid hormone availability to the skeletal muscles via subnormal glutathione. It was especially prominent with me in the a.m. or of course, after exertion. I always correlated this with low body temps and the hpa axis dysfunction. Anyway, in my view this is definitely a worsening condition. While this should improve over time with methylation support, it may be a sign that you are doing something else that is making the situation worse, like using substances that stimulate cellular energy or mobilizing heavy metals that redistribute in more sensitive tissue areas like the hypothalmus or pituitary. I had this symptom both before and after doing the SMP. The symptom vacillated a bit after starting the SMP, then improved very gradually over six months or so. Chelation has seemingly completely resolved this. If it keeps getting worse, you need to re-examine what you are doing.

Thanks Vegas.

My thyroid has been tested many times and always comes back normal. However, I have this strange sensation around my throat, (approx. thyroid location), where it feels almost like I'm choking, from even light pressure there, (ie. the collar of a t-shirt, or even a light bedsheet).

...doing something else that is making the situation worse, like using substances that stimulate cellular energy

Have started using L-carnitine, ALA, Sam-e and TMG, but only recently - the problem started well before.

As for toxicity, I tested high for lead about 3 years ago. The ND I was seeing did 3 sessions of IV chelation, re-tested and deemed the level to be undetectable. Don't know about the blood-brain barrier problem, though.

 

[maddietod]

Started taking mag. glycinate, (150mg at bedtime), about a month ago. I remember hearing that it works with B6, so I take 100mg B6 with it, as well. Hasn't helped yet.

I take 800mg mag citrate, split am/pm, to fix leg twitching. Less than this does nothing - it's not a sliding scale for me.

Madie

 

[Vegas]

My thyroid has been tested many times and always comes back normal.

> Including thyroid antibodies & reverse T3?

Have started using L-carnitine, ALA, Sam-e and TMG, but only recently - the problem started well before.

> Strongly urge you to discontinue ALA. Also, you are not the only one to do poorly on carnitine. TMG shouldn't be used until much later. It can make matters worse.

As for toxicity, I tested high for lead about 3 years ago. The ND I was seeing did 3 sessions of IV chelation, re-tested and deemed the level to be undetectable. Don't know about the blood-brain barrier problem, though.

> Lead doesn't come out that quickly. It is commonly stored in bones, and the brain, among other tissues, and there is no way you resolved lead toxicity after 3 i/v's. One cannot chelate lead out of bones; it comes out on its own. This process can take several years or more. A single blood, urine or stool metals test is not particularly useful if it comes back negative.

 

[Rockt]

Strongly urge you to discontinue ALA. Also, you are not the only one to do poorly on carnitine. TMG shouldn't be used until much later. It can make matters worse.


Thanks Vegas.

Can you explain what's wrong with ALA? Also, how do we know I'm doing poorly on L-carnitine? I've only been taking it, (and sam-e, ALA and TMG), a couple of weeks. The issues were bad well before.

 

[Rockt]

Yes, I do think the mitochondria are involved.


Has anyone had success with any of the mito. support supplements with NT Factor? ie.:

https://www.prohealth.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/PH195

or Garth Nicolson's:

http://immclinicals.org/the-product

 

[Cindi]

Hi all

Just started reading this thread and I am on page 27 yet. Thanks for all the information given. Especially to Freddd.I did 500 mcg injection of adenosylC today and I am quite energized.Is this normal with such a low dosage? Thanks.

 

[Sasha]

I've just started up the basic vits again (A, B-complex, C, D, E) plus zinc and lecithin in preparation for starting to try the protocol again. I was surprised to find that within a few minutes, I had a slight headache and a slight achey/spasmy sensation in my face and upper lip. When I tried the protocol a couple of months ago, I didn't get these symptoms until I introduced b12 and thought that they were start-up symptoms.

Do these sensations indicate a problem? Should I be trying to identify which supplement is causing them and stop taking it? Or is this likely to be b-complex related and so indirectly a start-up issue and nothing to problem-solve over?

 

[aprilk1869]

I've just started up the basic vits again (A, B-complex, C, D, E) plus zinc and lecithin in preparation for starting to try the protocol again. I was surprised to find that within a few minutes, I had a slight headache and a slight achey/spasmy sensation in my face and upper lip. When I tried the protocol a couple of months ago, I didn't get these symptoms until I introduced b12 and thought that they were start-up symptoms.

Do these sensations indicate a problem? Should I be trying to identify which supplement is causing them and stop taking it? Or is this likely to be b-complex related and so indirectly a start-up issue and nothing to problem-solve over?

I wonder if the b12 is being recycled in your body and so your blood level is still fairly high. Therefore when you start the cofactors, the b12 is there to start healing again?