B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sasha]

Hi Suzanne - you are wise to take this seriously, I think, as Freddd strongly warns about the potentially fatal effects of low potassium.

I was concerned about taking what I perceived to be a relatively high daily dose (I'm at 1,200mg/day now) but having worked out my dietary intake it's about half the RDA of 4,500mg and that's for healthy people who aren't on the b12 protocol with an increased need for potassium.

I don't know if there are any issues with taking a very high dose of potassium all at once (I don't know if that's what you were contemplating with the celery seeds). Presumably you have to chew them hard to make sure you break down the seed casing so that they don't just pass through your body undigested.

 

[DrD]

Hi Rockt - I tried Mg citrate then malate, with problems with both. That's good that you're having success with glycinate - the oil is messy and inconvenient so I'd rather take a supplement if I could tolerate it.

Have you tried Mg Taurate. This is the only one that really works for me. The combination is really effective for intracellular penetration.

 

[DrD]

Considering that the sweet alcohols in a single tablet of any of these is less than a single bite of apple or most any fruit, unless those affect you in the same way it is the startup effect of b12, nothing detrimental. With a sublingual tablet of mb12 such as the Enzymatic B12 infusion effects can start in 5 minutes with a tiny fraction of the tablet dissolved and absorbed. Because vitamins are not tested medications the makers are NOT allowed by FDA regulations to tell you to use it sublingually and they required a number of companies to change their directions, possibly becasue somebody saw our conversations and complained. They had ignored it for a decade before the recent crackdown.

Most injected mb12 is very inferior to the 5 star sublingual tablets for reasons explained dozens of times. Enzymatic Therapy and Jarrow mb12 tablts are many times as effective as the typical mb12 brand. Of the 10 brands tested one brand was totally inefective.

Natural Factors does not have any sorbitolor mannitol.I have problems w/ these as well.
However it does have lactose. It works fine for me and those who are not lactose intollerant. I get sublinguals (mini-trouches) from Fred's compounding pharmacy at 5000 mcg each. They are made w/ polyglycol. Nothing else (tell them to not to add flavoring and they will do that). The are made fresh from the raw crystals that they have. However they are very expensive at about 1$ each. They are more effective than any of the over the counter sublinguals that i have used.

 

[Sasha]

Have you tried Mg Taurate. This is the only one that really works for me. The combination is really effective for intracellular penetration.

Hi DrD - no, I haven't tried Mg taurate. Fortunately I just got an email from the manufacturer of the Mg oil that I use to say that you can wipe the residue of the oil off after a couple of minutes because all of the Mg will have been absorbed by then so I'm happy now to stick with the oil unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.

Incidentally, the "oil" isn't an organic oil - it's just a highly saturated solution of Mg salt in water but it feels like oil. It just rinses off with water.

It's useful to hear about all these alternative forms, though - a lot of people seem to have problems with one form or another so it's very helpful to hear about the range of options!

 

[Sasha]

What to do about too much potassium? or Mg?

I'm really struggling with sorting out which, if any, of my Mg/Ca/K are too high/low. I'd like advice on how to safely drop the doses to try to recalibrate myself.

Since going on the b12 protocol I've had profound exhaustion and the beginnings of muscle cramps, dealt with by Mg and K. I'm not taking any Ca because both times I tried, I crashed within a couple of hours.

In recent days, sometimes when I've found myself exhausted without any extra activity I've taken a test dose of 500mg K and quickly felt better and have titrated my daily dose up; other days that hasn't worked.

Last night I took my evening dose of 300mg K with food and maybe an hour or two later felt nauseous. Today I felt nauseous within about 10 minutes of my lunctime dose. My total daily dose is now 1,200mg. I was up to 720mg Mg transdermally plus an Epsom salts bath a couple of days ago with 500mg of salts in the bath.

I'm wondering if I'm maybe taking too much of both or either. I've seen nausea listed as a symptom of too much Mg or K or too little Mg but since the nausea is following a dose of K I'm assuming maybe too much K.

I'm wondering how to reduce my doses. Is there any problem in titrating down quickly? For instance, if I take no more potassium today (a halving of my daily dose), would that cause any sort of rebound? Similarly for Mg?

Any ideas what to do about Ca?

Sorry I'm going on about this but I'm getting profound fatigue that I'm not able to recover from, and palpitations on and off. If this persists, I don't know what to do for my own safety other than come off the whole protocol, since the b12 is presumably driving my need for this extra stuff. I'd really rather not, having come this far and having seen some early benefit.

I no longer have any b12 start-up symptoms - I'm at the stage of keeping the b12 doses stable while introducing co-factors - so I'm surprised that my need for these things is changing. Perhaps it's that I've increased/decreased Mg/K/Ca in the wrong way - I'm struggling to get a good strategy because the symptoms of deficiency and oversupply are similar, and for all three elements.

 

[aprilk1869]

Sasha, my only guess would be to try spreading the potassium tablets out more like 1 tablet every 10 mintues.

 

[Sasha]

Sasha, my only guess would be to try spreading the potassium tablets out more like 1 tablet every 10 mintues.

Hi april - just not sure if I'm taking too much or the right amount but too fast. I've had facial twitching today as well (and have done on some other days). The fact that I got nausea a couple of hours after my evening dose yesterday makes me suspect it's the dose rather than the rate. Very hard to know what to do.

 

[aprilk1869]

The fact that I got nausea a couple of hours after my evening dose yesterday makes me suspect it's the dose rather than the rate. Very hard to know what to do.

Yes but let's say you take 1 every 10 minutes, you get up to 7 tablets and then you start getting problems, maybe that means next time you only need 6.

If you take them all at the same time you end up not really knowing how many you need.

I've never had to deal with this so I honestly don't know. But if the problems were happening to me this is what I'd try.

 

[Sasha]

Yes but let's say you take 1 every 10 minutes, you get up to 7 tablets and then you start getting problems, maybe that means next time you only need 6.

If you take them all at the same time you end up not really knowing how many you need.

I've never had to deal with this so I honestly don't know. But if the problems were happening to me this is what I'd try.

Hi april - thanks again - I just don't know how to think about this. I'm wondering now how other people on b12 are splitting their potassium dose. It's supposed to be best to take it with meals so I'm dividing my 1,200mg dose into four lots of 300mg with each of my four meals. 300mg is less potassium than you would get in a banana and at about 2,000mg potassium a day in my daily diet, I'm already about 2,500mg/day below the RDA. And yet with what should be a small dose with a meal I'm getting nausea, palpitations and now, facial twitching. And on some days, a one-off dose of 500mg between meals is necessary to rescue me from exhaustion (and doesn't cause nausea). It doesn't seem to add up.

 

[retireddpm]

Anyone know if methyl b12 can cause an increase in adrenaline or cortisol thus actually being excitatory to the nervous system.

Thanks

 

[lucyhem]

DrD
Thanks for the response about sorbitol etc. They tend to be hard on my stomach. What is the name of Freds compounding pharmacy?
Lucy

 

[richvank]

Anyone know if methyl b12 can cause an increase in adrenaline or cortisol thus actually being excitatory to the nervous system.

Thanks

Hi, retireddpm.

I think that methyl B12 can initially cause an increase in excitotoxicity of the nervous system when there is a partial block in the methylation cycle. The mechanism is that when the methionine synthase reaction is stimulated by B12 (and folate), homocysteine is diverted from its flow down the transsulfuration pathway to support the synthesis of glutathione. Lower glutathione in the mitochondria of the astrocytes in the brain causes higher oxidative stress and a lowering of ATP production. Lower ATP inhibits the import of glutamate from the synapses of the neurons and its conversion to glutamine. That causes the glutamate level in the synapses to rise, and that increases the stimulation of the NMDA receptors, increasing excitotoxicity. I have suggested trying some liposomal glutathione to counter this.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[aprilk1869]

Hi april - thanks again - I just don't know how to think about this. I'm wondering now how other people on b12 are splitting their potassium dose. It's supposed to be best to take it with meals so I'm dividing my 1,200mg dose into four lots of 300mg with each of my four meals. 300mg is less potassium than you would get in a banana and at about 2,000mg potassium a day in my daily diet, I'm already about 2,500mg/day below the RDA. And yet with what should be a small dose with a meal I'm getting nausea, palpitations and now, facial twitching. And on some days, a one-off dose of 500mg between meals is necessary to rescue me from exhaustion (and doesn't cause nausea). It doesn't seem to add up.

I find this very puzzling. If you look at this wiki page on hypokalemia you'll find lots of suggestion such as too much aldesterone, Cushing's syndrome causing too much cortisol, glycyrrhizin contained in licorice, diuretics (I know Freddd said that when he started Carnitine Fumarate he lost a lot of water) as reasons for hypokalemia.

My mum's been on this protocol since the beginning of the year, only takes 2 potassium tablets yet her blood test came back recently as 4.2 which is pretty good. Freddd tries to aim for 4.5.

I wonder how you might do if you take potassium transdermally by buying it in liquid form or dissolving potassium powder.

Other than that maybe you want to cut back on the b12 so as to reduce the rate of healing until Fred gets back and can advise you better.

 

[Sasha]

I find this very puzzling. If you look at this wiki page on hypokalemia you'll find lots of suggestion such as too much aldesterone, Cushing's syndrome causing too much cortisol, glycyrrhizin contained in licorice, diuretics (I know Freddd said that when he started Carnitine Fumarate he lost a lot of water) as reasons for hypokalemia.

My mum's been on this protocol since the beginning of the year, only takes 2 potassium tablets yet her blood test came back recently as 4.2 which is pretty good. Freddd tries to aim for 4.5.

I wonder how you might do if you take potassium transdermally by buying it in liquid form or dissolving potassium powder.

Other than that maybe you want to cut back on the b12 so as to reduce the rate of healing until Fred gets back and can advise you better.

Thanks, april - I don't think that any of those conditions that you list could be causing me to have low potassium because my problems have only started with the b12 protocol. I take it as a sign that the protocol is working in the sense of causing my cells to start repairing, but is increasing my need for potassium (or something) which has been causing me to feel worse lately.

I'm interested in taking potassium transdermally (I don't like swallowing tablets). I see that Now Foods sell a potassium chloride powder but haven't been able to find a pre-made liquid form. Is that just a matter of mixing the powder in water and letting it dry on the skin?

I'm wondering now if Vitamin C, not potassium, could have been causing my nausea. I'm reducing my dose of Vit C to see if that helps.

So complicated! Still, it is good to see that something is happening, which means that there is the potential for improvement.

 

[aprilk1869]

Thanks, april - I don't think that any of those conditions that you list could be causing me to have low potassium because my problems have only started with the b12 protocol. I take it as a sign that the protocol is working in the sense of causing my cells to start repairing, but is increasing my need for potassium (or something) which has been causing me to feel worse lately.

The thing I don't get is why some people experience rapid healing and need a lot of potassium whilst others need very little. My dad has experienced very rapid healing yet only took a minimal amount of potassium. Why are you so different from my dad?

but haven't been able to find a pre-made liquid form. Is that just a matter of mixing the powder in water and letting it dry on the skin?

I'm not sure, I think you'd have to do a bit of experimenting to see what works.

I'm wondering now if Vitamin C, not potassium, could have been causing my nausea. I'm reducing my dose of Vit C to see if that helps.

Yes, a lot of people have complained that vitamin C causes nausea. Magnesium Ascorbate is supposed to be good

 

[Sasha]

Hi april - thanks for the recommendation of Mg ascorbate, I'll look into that.

Yes, good question why we're all so different!

 

[lucyhem]

Does anyone have a reliable compounding pharmacy that could supply me with B12 sublingual and injectable? I started the Jarrow lozenges and want to rule out the filler ingredients as the triggers for the weird feeling I get from the B12.

On a related note it is hard to imagine that the slight anxiety I get is an immediate detox response as it happens almost instantaneously, the way my food allergies do. It is possible I have, as Fred suggests, some enzyme deficiency or other gene variant that interferes w B12 absorption? I also get a metallic taste in my mouth that remained in the spot where the lozenge was all day. Anyone else get that? Could be fillers or flavorings. Or could it be my body mobilizing metals that quickly?

Any thoughts welcomed
Lucy

 

[retireddpm]

nervous system arousal

Has anyone had problems with methyl b12 where an existing anxiety or nervous system arousal is made worse when taking methyl b12. I think this happens and can not be written off to start up effect.

 

[richvank]

Has anyone had problems with methyl b12 where an existing anxiety or nervous system arousal is made worse when taking methyl b12. I think this happens and can not be written off to start up effect.

Hi, retireddpm.

I think this is due to an increase in the excitotoxicity of the neurons that have NMDA glutamate receptors. When methionine synthase is first stimulated using B12 and folate, it converts more of the homocysteine into methionine, so that less enters the transsulfuration pathway to support glutathione synthesis. Glutathione therefore drops initially on this type of treatment, and that impacts the ability of the astrocytes in the brain to import glutamate and convert it to glutamine for recycle back to the neurons. The glutamate level in the synapses thus stays too high, and that causes too much stimulation of the NMDA receptors, raising the state of excitotoxicity. Anxiety, insomnia and nervousness are symptoms of excitotoxicity.

This should calm down as the methylation cycle recovers and more homocysteine is available to go to glutathione synthesis. In the meantime, I have suggested that using some liposomal glutathione might help. The new acetyl glutathione that is supplied by Allergy Research Group might also be a possibility. I haven't had much feedback on this yet, so can't say for sure if it will work.

There are several other supplements that may help with excitotoxicity. Among them are magnesium, taurine, progesterone cream, GABA, theanine, Valerian root and some others. Dr. Yasko has suggested these in her book "Autism, Pathways to Recovery."

Rich

 

[retireddpm]

Rich

Hi, retireddpm.

I think this is due to an increase in the excitotoxicity of the neurons that have NMDA glutamate receptors. When methionine synthase is first stimulated using B12 and folate, it converts more of the homocysteine into methionine, so that less enters the transsulfuration pathway to support glutathione synthesis. Glutathione therefore drops initially on this type of treatment, and that impacts the ability of the astrocytes in the brain to import glutamate and convert it to glutamine for recycle back to the neurons. The glutamate level in the synapses thus stays too high, and that causes too much stimulation of the NMDA receptors, raising the state of excitotoxicity. Anxiety, insomnia and nervousness are symptoms of excitotoxicity.

This should calm down as the methylation cycle recovers and more homocysteine is available to go to glutathione synthesis. In the meantime, I have suggested that using some liposomal glutathione might help. The new acetyl glutathione that is supplied by Allergy Research Group might also be a possibility. I haven't had much feedback on this yet, so can't say for sure if it will work.

There are several other supplements that may help with excitotoxicity. Among them are magnesium, taurine, progesterone cream, GABA, theanine, Valerian root and some others. Dr. Yasko has suggested these in her book "Autism, Pathways to Recovery."

Rich

What about the use of hydroxy b12 instead of methyl b12 since I did have a b12 deficiency last year, would the sublingual hydroxy deliver enough active b12 to the body