B-12 - The Hidden Story

[lucyhem]

Fredd
I so appreciate the time energy and effort you have put into experimenting with yourself and sharing your results with us. You have been very diligent in your research. I would like to benefit from all your care.

I am a healthcare provider and have access through a distributor to the brands that are sold through doctors offices, many high quality brands such as Designs for Health and others. I notice that most of the brands you mention are available at healthfood stores. I wonder if you have tried the ones sold in doctors offices and if they might be of higher quality. I would like to use one that I can get wholesale. Otherwise this becomes a very expensive experiment.

I am also confused about "start-up" sensations vs sensitivities. The feeling I get reminds me of my food sensitivities, kind of anxious, slight heart palpitation and a hardening in my nervous system. Not an increased sense of ease or flow. This happens within moments. I have not stayed w a supplement that gave me that feeling in the past. Do you really think I could be getting benefit from it even with those sensations? Is it possible these sensations indicate a problem with using B-12?

Finally I want to supplement B-2 riboflavin. Any thoughts about form, dosage and brand?

 

[Sasha]

Hi Freddd - I still have fatigue and slightly sore muscles - seems to be mainly my arms and legs but even my hands, which suggests to me that it isn't extra activity that's doing it, since I'm not using my hands more than normal. My muscles feel unusually tense as well as sore (I have to consciously stretch my hands sometime to relieve the sensation and try to relax them).

I've upped my dose of Mg by 20% (from 360mg/day to about 430mg/day) with no apparent improvement after 36 hours. I'm wondering if I should increase that further yet.

Also, I'm wondering whether I should try taking extra folate to see if this is a folate deficiency issue. I currently take one Solgar's 800mcg folate (as metafolin) once a day.

If I increase the folate as a test for folate deficiency, is a doubling of the dose reasonable? If I'm deficient, how quickly should I expect to see muscle soreness disappear? I found the potassium test (500mg and improvement within half an hour) so clear and useful I'm hoping the same might be possible for folate!

I guess the same questions also apply to increasing Mg - what dose is a good test dose, and how quickly should muscle soreness disappear?

I've just had a bit of a weird Mg experience while trying to identify what is causing the muscle soreness and extra fatigue.

On top of my newly upped dose of Mg spray, I just took an Epsom salts bath (about 150g of salts) because my muscles were particularly sore. Disappointingly, the bath (which I stayed in for half an hour) had no effect on the soreness at all. However, when I got out and sprayed on my evening dose of Mg, it stung my skin for the first time ever.

I have read that this is a sign of Mg deficiency which goes away when your levels increase. Does anyone have a clue why I would suddenly get this while rubbing in Mg oil after an Epsom salts bath, having been using the oil for weeks now?

I have doubts about how well I'm absorbing the oil - I rub it in as much as possible and leave it to dry for 15 minutes but my skin still feels sticky. I don't know if that's relevant.

Also wondering of course if it could be a folate and/or potassium issue.

 

[Freddd]

I've just had a bit of a weird Mg experience while trying to identify what is causing the muscle soreness and extra fatigue.

On top of my newly upped dose of Mg spray, I just took an Epsom salts bath (about 150g of salts) because my muscles were particularly sore. Disappointingly, the bath (which I stayed in for half an hour) had no effect on the soreness at all. However, when I got out and sprayed on my evening dose of Mg, it stung my skin for the first time ever.

I have read that this is a sign of Mg deficiency which goes away when your levels increase. Does anyone have a clue why I would suddenly get this while rubbing in Mg oil after an Epsom salts bath, having been using the oil for weeks now?

I have doubts about how well I'm absorbing the oil - I rub it in as much as possible and leave it to dry for 15 minutes but my skin still feels sticky. I don't know if that's relevant.

Also wondering of course if it could be a folate and/or potassium issue.

Hi Sasha,

Epsom salts baths can sting when the skin is irritated. Don't shave any skin to be exposed to them within a couple of hours. I have no idea about magnesium oil. People say and write a lot of things that have no basis in fact so I can't say. I don't subscribe at all to the idea that holding something and pushing on one's arm can tell you anything. I have seen this be so totally wrong as to be dangerous. So who knows what the stinging might mean. The person might be right for wrong reasons or wrong for right reasons or who knows. Irritated skin burns with all sorts of things.

 

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,

Epsom salts baths can sting when the skin is irritated. Don't shave any skin to be exposed to them within a couple of hours. I have no idea about magnesium oil. People say and write a lot of things that have no basis in fact so I can't say. I don't subscribe at all to the idea that holding something and pushing on one's arm can tell you anything. I have seen this be so totally wrong as to be dangerous. So who knows what the stinging might mean. The person might be right for wrong reasons or wrong for right reasons or who knows. Irritated skin burns with all sorts of things.

Hi Freddd - the bath didn't sting my skin at all - my skin only started stinging when I rubbed in the Mg oil. It says on the packet:

Applying directly to the skin is the most efficient way for the body to be supplied this essential mineral. Some people however will find that initial applications tingle. The process of absorption is fast and can cause tingling or isolated skin redness if magnesium levels are initially low. In this instance apply fewer sprays onto wet skin and wash area one or two minutes after application if required. Apply these lower doses regularly and as magnesium levels improve this reaction will quickly reduce.​

As you say, people aren't always rigorous in their statements and I don't know what evidence this is based on.

I took that bath last thing last night and although I didn't have any improvement at the time, I woke up with much less muscle soreness than before, so I take that to be promising. I will start experimenting today with considerably increasing my dose and trying different delivery methods.

I'm wondering whether the bath opened my pores up much more than my usual shower does - I can't stand long in the shower and sit on a shower seat away from the water to soap myself so I'm only under the shower itself for about 15 seconds to get wet and then 30 seconds later to rinse off, which probably isn't long enough to have the same effect. If that stinging sensation really is to do with indicating a deficiency, or even just to do with indicating that Mg is being absorbed, maybe that's why I noticed the effect after the bath.

I will start a separate thread on Mg absorption, since I expect a lot of people on the forum have experience of different Mg delivery methods who don't read the b12 thread.

Thanks again for your comments - always very helpful and interesting! I really appreciate how much work you put into helping us.

 

[Rockt]

I've struggled with magnesium for about a year, but I know it's an important cofactor, so I keep trying to take it. Someone here suggested magnesium glycinate so I got some and 1 week in, I seem to be tolerating it. Don't feel any better, but hopefully I can keep taking it and it will help, along with the other cofactors, eventually.

 

[Sasha]

I've struggled with magnesium for about a year, but I know it's an important cofactor, so I keep trying to take it. Someone here suggested magnesium glycinate so I got some and 1 week in, I seem to be tolerating it. Don't feel any better, but hopefully I can keep taking it and it will help, along with the other cofactors, eventually.

Hi Rockt - I tried Mg citrate then malate, with problems with both. That's good that you're having success with glycinate - the oil is messy and inconvenient so I'd rather take a supplement if I could tolerate it.

 

[lucyhem]

SAsha
Are you taking the Mg oil topically because cannot tolerate it internally? What kind of oil do you use?
Lucy

 

[Sasha]

Hi lucyhem - yes, the tablets gave me diarrhoea so I switched to Mg oil. I use the BetterYou brand (like all of them, I think, it sources the Mg salt from the underground Zechstein (?) sea.

Last night I stood under the shower longer to try to open my pores and then applied triple my usual evening dose over most of my body (540mg). I got the stinging effect again - perhaps that just means it's being absorbed better.

Anyway, I got to sleep faster last night and woke up feeling rested and without sore muscles. However, having got up, my muscles are quickly becoming sore and tired while I'm using them.

If you're Mg deficient, I'm not sure how long it would take to get lasting relief from this. This is a new symptom that I've had on and off only since starting the b12 protocol.

Edit: I just tried a test dose of 500mg potassium (which I've tried twice since this "sore muscle" episode began a couple of weeks ago with no apparent effect) and this time, it has helped with the soreness. I think I must be simultaneously having a lack of both Mg and potassium, with both probably contributing to both the soreness and the fatigue. All quite confusing to get a handle on!

 

[aprilk1869]

I recently suggested that puritanspride.co.uk might be a good place for people in the UK to buy from. Well, 2 weeks ago I placed an order and still haven't received it. It turns out that they aren't based in the UK at all and that everything is sent out from the US by DHL via various German cities including Frankfurt and Kln. Hell knows where it is now.

Your order shipped out on 07/19/11 via Global Deutsche Air. This method of shipping normally takes up to 1 to 3 weeks for delivery. Please allow extra time as Customs sometimes hold packages for verification. We also do not have any control over your countries Customs regulations as this may delay the delivery of your package.

I think it's really appauling that a company should try and pass themselves off as British by having prices in GB pounds, a UK telephone number and of course a UK domain. I'm really angry that I'm having to wait this long plus I'll probably have to pay 20% VAT on top.

On closer inspection of their website it does say that orders are sent out from the US but that info is buried deep down on the help page.

If I wanted to buy from the US I would've placed an order with iherb as I've done in the past without these hassles!

 

[Sasha]

Sorry to hear about that, april - I got caught out similarly buying D-ribose from Amazon UK and when it finally turned up it had been shipped from the US (and they'd marked it as "a gift" on the customs box!). Talk about unprofessional.

I've been using www.bigvits.co.uk for lots of things on the protocol (they import high-quality US stuff and ship from the UK) and it has generally been next-day delivery. They're extremely fast and reliable.

 

[Sasha]

I still seem to be having potassium problems and found a thread on b12-induced potassium depletion and posted about it there in case anyone is interested in this specifically (I feel a little embarrassed to be endlessly banging on about it here!).

Basically, I analysed my diet and find that it contains less than half the RDA for potassium so I'm starting from a low (though apparently national average) base.

 

[aprilk1869]

Sasha, that's good to know about bigvits. I've heard of them before but never made a purchase.

These are the sites I've bought from and have been happy with their service:-

http://www.luxebc.com/
http://www.vit-shop.co.uk/
http://www.myprotein.com/ (cheapest place for d-ribose if buying in bulk)
http://www.healthyandessential.com/

I don't know why companies try and pass themselves off as British, I can't see them getting any repeat sales that's for sure!

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, april - I've also bought from luxebc and was impressed. I'll check out those others for D-ribose.

 

[Rockt]

Hi Rockt - I tried Mg citrate then malate, with problems with both. That's good that you're having success with glycinate - the oil is messy and inconvenient so I'd rather take a supplement if I could tolerate it.

Spoke too soon? Having really bad brain fog - feels like I have the worst hangover ever and haven't slept in decades. Usually when it gets this bad for no real reason, it's from some supplement, not lack of. In the past mag. has caused this, so I guess I'll back off and see what happens. Too bad because I know it's necessary and it was helping with sleep.

 

[lucyhem]

Rich, Fredd, anyone,
I accidentally order a DibencozideB12 that contains 400mcg of folic acid. Is this contraindicated if I am on the SMP? If so, darn it. It is hard to find that form without added Folic Acid.
Lucy

 

[richvank]

Rich, Fredd, anyone,
I accidentally order a DibencozideB12 that contains 400mcg of folic acid. Is this contraindicated if I am on the SMP? If so, darn it. It is hard to find that form without added Folic Acid.
Lucy

Hi, Lucy.

One thing that Freddd and I do agree on, but perhaps for different reasons, is that it's best to minimize folic acid when on a methylation protocol.

I believe that it's best to minimize folic acid because some people inherit a slow version of the DHFR enzyme, which is the one that normally converts folic acid to the chemically reduced form tetrahydrofolate, which can then be converted to the various active forms of folate. In addition, folic acid competes with the natural, active forms of folate (methylfolate and folinic acid) for absorption from the gut into the blood and from the blood into the cells. Furthermore, two molecules of NADPH are needed to convert each molecule of folic acid into THF, and PWMEs have been found to be low in NADPH. This substance is also needed for other important reactions, including the MTHFR, MTRR and glutathione reductase reactions. And in addition, there is some published research that indicates that if folic acid builds up in the blood, it inhibits the activity of the natural killer cells.

It's true that there is still some folic acid in the multi that I have suggested in the latest revision of my suggested protocol. I have not yet parted company with the Yasko multi, because I would like to retain the simplicity of taking a multi, and I also think that one contains some beneficial ingredients for methylation treatment that other multis don't have. However, I'm aware that some people are trying other multis, and I'm interested to hear how they work out.

Freddd is opposed to the use of folic acid because his own experience was that it caused him to have a major setback during his methylation treatment. I have recently suggested that Freddd himself may have an enzyme deficiency in the enzyme MTHFS (methenyltetrahydrofolate synthetase) which would cause him to have difficulty with both folinic acid and folic acid supplementation. As far as I have been able to determine, this is a very rare enzyme deficiency, not reported in the published literature, but I think it would explain Freddd's experiences with these supplements. I note that most PWMEs seem to do well with folinic acid. There is one published paper in which a high dosage of it was given, and most of the PWME's benefited from it.

I should also add that Dr. Alan Vinitsky in Maryland uses high dosages of folic acid together with hydroxocobalamin (taken together sublingually) in his protocol, and apparently has some good results with it, I think primarily in autism. I think that the high dosage is the key. If enough is given, perhaps the conversion to the active forms is sufficient to support the methyation cycle in most people. However, I don't think this is the best approach, and I'm confident that Freddd would agree, especially for his own case.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Sasha]

I'm struggling to get a handle on the best dose of Mg/Ca/K for me, all of which appear to be suspects in causing me sudden fatigue and/or slight palpitations.

When I started up on Freddd's protocol and introduced b12, I needed to introduce Mg to stop muscle soreness and to up my dose of K to stop extreme fatigue, palpitations and muscle soreness, and I'm now on 720mg Mg transdermally and 1,000mg K as tablets. I introduced 400mg Ca a week ago.

The last few days I've been experimenting with the timing of the doses to try to identify what is giving me problems. Yesterday and the day before I woke up feeling fine and rested but shortly after breakfast (and taking my Mg, Ca, and K, among other stuff) felt very tired and had to lie down for an hour. Both days, taking 500mg of K in one dose helped.

This morning, I delayed taking the Ca until lunchtime. Again, I woke up feeling fine but didn't crash in the morning - instead I crashed after the dose of Ca. This time I didn't take extra K but extra ab12 (which helped).

Is it plausible that 400mg of Ca would cause a mini-crash within an hour? I have read that if you are deficient in Mg, then you have to be careful about taking Ca because it competes with Mg for absorption.

Should I stop taking Ca for a while? Or take a much smaller dose? Or is my problem unlikely to be the Ca?

 

[lucyhem]

Fredd,
Can you refer me to a safe and reliable source of injectable B. I am going to try methyl first and would like to get it mail order?
Lucy

 

[suzanne]

Potassium problem?
I am struggling with start up and was wondering if someone can gie me some help....basically I have the co factors in place ( except vit d as it makes my itch worse).

14 days ago i started fredd'd protocol and got to 500mg MB12 (jarrow) and titrated to 600 mg methylfolate (solgar). I have had some headaches on this dose but most significantly my fatigue has become extreme ( cant move from bed until 12 noon) and my muscls in my arm have started to twitch. I guess this is potasium deficiency. I get burning sensation in my stomach when I take potassium supplements and so I am not keen with this approach ( I am still recovering from panreatitis and the potassium seems to irritate). I have increased my potassium rich foods but that may not be enough- i am not sure what to so about this dilemma.
I tried to increase my methyl B12 to 1000mg and felt really bad nausea and head pain and so i dropped my dose back down to 500mg. is this a sign of potassium deficiency?
Or just a start up issue that I need t work through/
if I need to increase potassium , I just dont know how to go about it without the incredible pain it causes my GI system...not sure why this is? Any ideas?

Is there a type of potassium that is going to be better than another - less irritating? I ordered some potassium from i herb that was a liquid concentrate that was meant to be less irritating on the stomach- I put it in a full glass of water and took it with food - I got pain for a day. the next day i put the drops on my wrist and feet ( half strength and stil had pain)...I am at a loss as to how to get my potassium levvels up other than through foods- any ideas about my titration and potassium issues?

 

[suzanne]

I may have found potassium answer?
Sorry to go on, but I dont want the potassium issue to stop me being able to go up in the m b12 titration.
I have just researched on line that celery seeds ( 1/4 tsp) have 5000+ mg of potassium.
Perhaps I should give that a go. A lot more potassium than eating bananas all day which only have about 450mg ( if my math is right I'd have to eat more than 10 bananas). So worth a go, and probably wont caause my pancreas or GI system distress.
I hope its the answer
I'll get the dr to check my potassium at the next appointment but I am sure i am low as I have always had muscle spasms and cramps and the spasms have got worse since I started the protocol.